White Privilege?

[Ice_nine]

so soc, little2add and superblue, why the downvotes? Not to be petty. Although I think you're proving our point in a way.

 

[Socrates]

Is this idea anything more than a hoax to make people feel better or worse about themselves?

​I'd describe it more as bs agitprop for the purpose of pitting groups of people against one another, promoting an attitude of helpless victimhood, and promoting a left-wing political agenda.

I'm not denying that for historical reasons, following slavery and segregation, etc., blacks have been disadvantaged, and a legacy of this is that plenty of blacks come from disadvantaged backgrounds.  But some whites and others come from disadvantaged backgrounds too.  Not every white kid was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

Nor am I denying that racism and racists still exist (of every race).  But today there is simply no real widespread institutional racism that prevents blacks and other minorities from succeeding in life, or that requires more government action to enforce "equality.".  Plenty of black people do in fact succeed, plenty of them more than most whites.  The difference between them and blacks that do not (as with people of all other races), is simply that they have encountered less racism by whites.

Behavior and culture is a bigger factor, un-pc as it is to point that out.  That's true of blacks, whites, and everyone else.

 

As a group, Asians tend to succeed more economically and academically than either blacks or whites, yet no one babbles or whines about "Asian Privilege" in America.  And Asians have certainly faced their shared of bigotry and injustice here historically, and many came with nothing, and were able to achieve much.

Similarly with Jews (even if they are considered a sub-set of white").  Jewish people tend to have done quite well for themselves as a group, yet there was certainly no embedded system of "Jewish privilege" in this country.

[little2add]

so soc, little2add and superblue, why the downvotes? Not to be petty. Although I think you're proving our point in a way.

 

How so?

[Ice_nine]

I assume you're a white man, probably middle class, possibly not, but anyhow someone said "the only people who can deny white privilege exists are white middle class men." or something like that

So maybe I'm wrong, but if you share your demographic info we could test that theory.

[Ice_nine]

this is a good article but it's written by a feminist so it willprobably be dismissed out of hand http://thefeministbreeder.com/explaining-white-privilege-broke-white-person/

[veritasluxmea]

I like how some people assume the color of another person based on their views. Just because you are a minority (from the viewpoint of someone living in a certain area of the United States) doesn't mean you have to subscribe to a certain idea. Frankly, that's a subtle prejudice. I recommend checking out these women. 

From article:

Recognizing Privilege simply means being aware that some people have to work much harder just to experience the things you take for granted (if they ever can experience them at all). 

I agree and disagree. I agree with recognizing and being aware "that some people have to work much harder just to experience the things you take for granted." We can- and should- do that by taking people's achievements on an individual level.

However, I still disagree with privilege. Recognizing that some people may face racism, some people work harder than others, some people suffer more than others, and if you live in certain areas it may be connected with how you look, and so on, is not recognizing "white privilege." Privilege changes. Oprah enjoys more privilege than the local white cis homeless male drug addict. She will find things easier in life than he does. Yes, she may have faced racism at one point and there may be people out there who are racist towards her (I hope not), but she still has more "privilege." Someone may have been born into a wonderful, wealthy, healthy life and may experience racism at one point and someone may have been born into  a terrible life, always struggled and had life set against them, and never experienced racism. Who's more privileged? What, exactly, are the things that are easy for someone that makes them privileged? Expecting not to experience racism? Expecting to go to college? Expecting to be healthy? Expecting to own a house? car? Expecting life to be easy? A middle class white rancher living in war-torn Southern Africa (specifically thinking of Zimbabwe in the 70's) could expect literally none of those things, face racism on a literally life-threatening level, and be a minority. All because of their white skin and northern hemisphere ethnicity. Being white is not inherently privilege and does not protect you from hatred for your skin color. 

Ok, look. I know it's internet taboo to mention nazis and so on in debate. I will only mention this in this post and leave it at that. I am doing this because, plain and simply, the analogy works. And it shouldn't. 

White Privilege, as it is known today, is a hate movement. Back in the Nazi era in Germany, Jews were thought to be oppressing the rest of the Germans. Go look in your history book. They were (thought to be) making (and hoarding) all the money, taking the best jobs, and so on. If you read that and your first thought is "Well, Jews are an oppressed group and white/cishet/males aren't," you're part of the problem. The German people viewed Jews as the oppressors. It doesn't matter if they were or weren't. That's how they viewed them. Jews were the privileged ones- they couldn't suffer racism and oppression, they were Jewish! People believe the same about white people today. Most people weren't evil enough to want the Jews to be tortured and die, but because they bought into the propaganda it happened way to easily. Most people don't want straight white males/whatever to die, but they buy into that subtle "white privilege" prejudice. And it is a harmful prejudice. 

In the end, privilege changes based on where you are in the world and even in the United States it's very fluid. I'm very, very wary of the behavior and attitudes of the people who support the idea of white privilege. They may simply be trying to recognize the fact that some people have it harder- but at the end of the day, it leads itself to prejudice and racism way to easily. Any prejudice, any racism- whether someone actually is an oppressor or isn't- is wrong. Period. The only way to actually help people live a better life and not suffer from being disadvantaged is to recognize and support people on an individual level, taking who they are, including their race, and how that could affect this or that, into consideration. Anyone can suffer racism or from lack of privilege. 

[little2add]

 

"the only people who can deny white privilege exists are white middle class men."

​

This color issue goes both ways. We have to watch how we put down one group to uplift the other.

[Guest]

No need to type like that. Come on.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Guest

[Norseman82]

OK, to those who bring up "white privilege":

What is your point?  What do you hope to accomplish?  What are your "action items"?

[Luigi]

White privilege is real. BUT... It doesn't explain (or excuse) all behavior in all situations by all people.

It's only one element of any given interaction between people. Wealth privilege is real. Style privilege is real (especially clothing - ask the woman who got engaged to the Swiss Guard!). Manners privilege is real. Gender privilege is real. Linguistic privilege is real. Education privilege is real. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera ad nauseum.

 

SIIGGGHHHH.

 

That's why I prefer take-a-number systems, like in the doughnut store.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Luigi

[hotpink]

I like how some people assume the color of another person based on their views. Just because you are a minority (from the viewpoint of someone living in a certain area of the United States) doesn't mean you have to subscribe to a certain idea. Frankly, that's a subtle prejudice. I recommend checking out these women. 

From article:

I agree and disagree. I agree with recognizing and being aware "that some people have to work much harder just to experience the things you take for granted." We can- and should- do that by taking people's achievements on an individual level.

However, I still disagree with privilege. Recognizing that some people may face racism, some people work harder than others, some people suffer more than others, and if you live in certain areas it may be connected with how you look, and so on, is not recognizing "white privilege." Privilege changes. Oprah enjoys more privilege than the local white cis homeless male drug addict. She will find things easier in life than he does. Yes, she may have faced racism at one point and there may be people out there who are racist towards her (I hope not), but she still has more "privilege." Someone may have been born into a wonderful, wealthy, healthy life and may experience racism at one point and someone may have been born into  a terrible life, always struggled and had life set against them, and never experienced racism. Who's more privileged? What, exactly, are the things that are easy for someone that makes them privileged? Expecting not to experience racism? Expecting to go to college? Expecting to be healthy? Expecting to own a house? car? Expecting life to be easy? A middle class white rancher living in war-torn Southern Africa (specifically thinking of Zimbabwe in the 70's) could expect literally none of those things, face racism on a literally life-threatening level, and be a minority. All because of their white skin and northern hemisphere ethnicity. Being white is not inherently privilege and does not protect you from hatred for your skin color. 

Ok, look. I know it's internet taboo to mention nazis and so on in debate. I will only mention this in this post and leave it at that. I am doing this because, plain and simply, the analogy works. And it shouldn't. 

White Privilege, as it is known today, is a hate movement. Back in the Nazi era in Germany, Jews were thought to be oppressing the rest of the Germans. Go look in your history book. They were (thought to be) making (and hoarding) all the money, taking the best jobs, and so on. If you read that and your first thought is "Well, Jews are an oppressed group and white/cishet/males aren't," you're part of the problem. The German people viewed Jews as the oppressors. It doesn't matter if they were or weren't. That's how they viewed them. Jews were the privileged ones- they couldn't suffer racism and oppression, they were Jewish! People believe the same about white people today. Most people weren't evil enough to want the Jews to be tortured and die, but because they bought into the propaganda it happened way to easily. Most people don't want straight white males/whatever to die, but they buy into that subtle "white privilege" prejudice. And it is a harmful prejudice. 

In the end, privilege changes based on where you are in the world and even in the United States it's very fluid. I'm very, very wary of the behavior and attitudes of the people who support the idea of white privilege. They may simply be trying to recognize the fact that some people have it harder- but at the end of the day, it leads itself to prejudice and racism way to easily. Any prejudice, any racism- whether someone actually is an oppressor or isn't- is wrong. Period. The only way to actually help people live a better life and not suffer from being disadvantaged is to recognize and support people on an individual level, taking who they are, including their race, and how that could affect this or that, into consideration. Anyone can suffer racism or from lack of privilege. 

​I didn't know that about Hitler and the Jews....scary stuff.

And yeah, like I said before...I don't think there's much white privilage in nothern states or places in cali...but go down south and the culture change is huge.  I couldn't figure out why those with dark skin acted, dressed and looked so different than me.  In my office we all do button up shirts, kakis and even in the convience store I worked in during college...people of all color dressed and looked the same. I encourage male and female students of all raceses and ethnicities to dress more apropraitely and don't notice many trends that are completly bound by color. Black, white and hispanic girls/women think pj's are acceptiable class atire....and black, white and hispanic boys/men think that super tight shirts and sagging pantaloons are great.  (hint-none of that's going to command respect)  But in the south...there are so many clear ethinic lines...it's bizarre.

 

OK, to those who bring up "white privilege":

What is your point?  What do you hope to accomplish?  What are your "action items"?

​I think that it should be a wakeup call for everyone.  I think that we need to end the discrimination against names that aren't anglicized.  I think those who do live where there are deep racial divides need to work to adopt some of the better parts of other cultures and teach them to leave behind other things.  EG getting dressed up for church.  Northwest- everyone is dressed alike, mostly nice jeans/kakis and a tee or button shirt.  South- whites are dressed in tees and jeans, hispanics are dressed in simple nice clothes, blacks are dressed to the nines in fancy almost costume atire with HUGE headresses and such...even in Catholic churches.  I never saw anything like it.  It was cool, and I was ashamed for having kacki's and a tee on.  The next time I was at Mass I wore dress pantaloons and a button shirt and a tie.  We should inspire eachother to be better, not worse.

 

White privilege is real. BUT... It doesn't explain (or excuse) all behavior in all situations by all people.

It's only one element of any given interaction between people. Wealth privilege is real. Style privilege is real (especially clothing - ask the woman who got engaged to the Swiss Guard!). Manners privilege is real. Gender privilege is real. Linguistic privilege is real. Education privilege is real. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera ad nauseum.

 

SIIGGGHHHH.

 

That's why I prefer take-a-number systems, like in the doughnut store.

​I think simply having white skin is a very small "privilage" these days, dependng on where you live, one that can often be negated by the spelling and sound of your name and the way you dress.  Someone in a suit will command more respect than someone in a wifebeeter no matter the skin color.  I can't find the story but recently on NPR morning eddition they did a story about a prison where the men are forced to wear suits (from the salvation army) they reduced prison crime and slashed re-offending rates by such a large number it's drawing enormous attention.  The other thing that is often sad but is a huge factor is naming.  Dwpshaine Williams  will often automatically get less respect than Shane Williams.  It's been studied and observed and people with deeply "black" and "Arabic" sounding names are often discriminated against.  Even within sports...some of the more talented oddly named people are often overlooked..and are more easily charged with crimes.    Chris Brown, Aaron Hernandez...they got alot more leeway than others.

 

[Socrates]

. . .  The difference between them and blacks that do not (as with people of all other races), is simply that they have encountered less racism by whites. . . .

 

Correction for the sake of clarity:  This was supposed to read:  "The difference between them and blacks that do not (as with people of all other races), is not simply that they have encountered less racism by whites."

[Socrates]

on the flipside, it's also true that self-handicapping can/does occur when people use this as an excuse. i think the biggest problem is that many poor neighborhoods are zoned to crummy public schools. our society is set up in a way that makes it difficult for poor minorities to escape a cycle of poverty. i think this contributes to a feeling of helplessness that middle class whites mistake for sheer laziness. 

but i probably got this all wrong because im not exactly black. 

​No, you got it mostly right.  If bleedin' heart libs were really interested in helping give poor minorities a better shot at success, they'd support school vouchers.  But their party is beholden to the public sector unions.  And wants to keep as many people dependent on government as possible.

[Socrates]

affirmative action yo is a thing. but then some white people seem to think that's discriminatory against them as well. as if everything revolves around them

​"Affirmative action" is racial discrimination, yo.  It involves hiring or promoting persons (or not) on the basis of their race, rather than individual merit.  You can try to argue that it has noble intentions, yet remains racial discrimination just the same.

[Kia ora]

Correction for the sake of clarity:  This was supposed to read:  "The difference between them and blacks that do not (as with people of all other races), is not simply that they have encountered less racism by whites."

 

race is one of the factors and one of the most important ones.  see how many young black men are in gaol. they get arrested, convicted and sentenced more harshly than whites for the same crimes. why? race. unless you think that young black men deserve to get penalised harsher than young white men who commit the same crimes...