KnightofChrist Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Those living when Christ returns will not die a natural death so . . . theory REJECTED. The rest of this post is just thinking out loud feel free to ignore it as we've gone way off-topic. I know hell is not empty. There are people who upon their death bed would surely spit in the face of Christ and His mercy because of pride or just pure seething hatred of God and all things holy. But I'm weak. I'm not a hero or a saint and I have many flaws I can only hope God comes to my aid on the day that I die and that the prayers of mother Mary protect me. I also wish for all those I know and love to be saved, even though most of them outwardly appear to reject God. They have been swooned and deceived by the philosophies of this day and age, and they are weak too. I pray to God daily for their health and well-being, but most of all that they be saved in the end, or at least before they die will be fully conscious of the consequences of their choice. That's how I deal with it, although mass damnation is still a very upsetting idea to me. I still hope the number of the saved is high. Christ said lots of cryptic things, I don't claim to be a scholar, but I do know that presuming one will be saved is a very dangerous line to walk. So maybe there is a reason in the rhetoric. idk many things. I frequently ask Christ to have mercy on me and those I love. What else can one do really? Well yes, those few may escape natural death. But save for those few all people will die. So it is hopeless to hope no one will die a natural death because it has already happened. But anyway if I understand you correctly I agree with your out loud thinking. It is good for you to hope and pray for your salvation and for the salvation of those you love. That is part of your Christian duty. Much of what will come at the end of the age is veiled, and we only have a foreshadowing of what will come. What Christ teaches about those times is true and will be true, the number of the saved could be quite high, but the number of those not saved will be higher. It is a hard teaching, like so many of Christ teachings. We are asked to follow in the footsteps of our Lord. The hard part about that is that those footsteps are bloody and hard to follow. Which is why so many take the easy road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I don't think God would make the conditions for people harder or more harsh than prior to the time of the Gospel; it is the Good news afterall. Well. Literally nobody went to heaven before Christ's resurrection. So... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 So Ireland is patting itself on the back on their recent ruling, and once pandoras box is open, it is near impossible to shut. I am finding it rather odd, I really thought Ireland was a big time Catholic place being St. Patrick and all that history, or at least really religious in general with the fighting between Protestants and Catholics. The history of Ireland i am not that booked up on.... So an reasons for this taking place other than flat out blaming satan. Could parts of the USA having legalized gay marriage have been a cause... thoughts. The climate has changed there a great deal. In the 1980's over 70% (maybe even higher) of the population went to Mass every single week. I believe it's about 20% now and it was going that way for some time. The child abuse problems have done damage in recent years. However, the problems were deep and existed before all that come out. The Catholic church had a suffocating degree of involvement in secular and government affairs and people grew tired of that and the clear hypocrisy. The abuses of women, thousands locked away well into the 1990's, and the general mistreatment of children over many years through the system helped to turn the tide against the church. As the generations went on it has all festered and resulted in younger generations, and some, empowering themselves to push back. Some pushed to the point they didn't want spiritual advice or guidance from the church, which they see as defective and out of date. You'll see the changes as the older people will moan about the church, but will toe the line by going to Mass and not tackling clergy. However, the younger people naturally switched tactic as they saw the efforts of their parents didn't change things. The result is the collapse of the Catholic church as it lost credibility on moral and social matters on the ground The Church also relied too much on cultural stability, devotion and only gave simple instruction to the population. They didn't bother to educate or explain things that well. This resulted in both fundamentalism on the one hand and a very lax approach on the other. They built up in sand and the tide simply came in. Sadly, much of it is the fault of the church. Karma hurts but a resurrection is possible, although I suspect God will want things to be very different and it won't be business as usual anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Well. Literally nobody went to heaven before Christ's resurrection. So... Jews were not, and still aren't, very interested in 'beliefs' as they focused far more on conduct. It could be said they had, and now to varying extents, also have little interest in concepts of heaven and hell. They do not say you have to believe a list of things to get to such places, as an example. Jews viewed that gentiles only needed to follow the Noahide Laws. These were all conduct based, even though they were viewed and applied differently at varying times. Has the Christian tradition often gone about things so as to make it more difficult or has something gone amiss in finding this God of love? It seems to me a bit excessive at times, probably more so in some protestant circles, that any list of beliefs and doctrines mean more than love. Doctrines should illuminate love, not supress it. I also think the church, maybe less so in recent centuries though, still relies too much on a transactional reward and punishment concept to motivate, order peck and bring conversion. It's as if the God of love alone isn't trusted. Some probably think Christianity would fall apart without the idea of hell keeping people on their knees and in the pews! It has a place in theology but it can be used as a spiritual and emotional abuse. Edited June 4, 2015 by Benedictus spg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Jews were not, and still aren't, very interested in 'beliefs' as they focused far more on conduct. It could be said they had, and now to varying extents, also have little interest in concepts of heaven and hell. They do not say you have to believe a list of things to get to such places, as an example. Jews viewed that gentiles only needed to follow the Noahide Laws. These were all conduct based, even though they were viewed and applied differently at varying times. Has the Gospel, and the Christian tradition, made it make difficult or has something can amiss in finding this God of love? It seems to me a bit excessive at times, probably more so in some protestant circles, that any list of beliefs and doctrines mean more than love. Doctrines should illuminate love, not supress it. I also think the church, maybe less so in recent centuries though, still relies too much on a transactional reward and punishment concept to motivate, order peck and bring conversion. It's as if the God of love alone isn't trusted. Some probably think Christianity would fall apart without the idea of hell keeping people on their knees and in the pews! It has a place in theology but it can be used as a spiritual and emotional abuse. I kind of only skimmed the bulk of that because it is only tangentially related to what I said, and pretty uninteresting to boot. You missed my point. Not a single human in all of history went to heaven before Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Not one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I kind of only skimmed the bulk of that because it is only tangentially related to what I said, and pretty uninteresting to boot. You missed my point. Not a single human in all of history went to heaven before Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Not one. If you say so. Why would I address your point? As I said, I was talking about pre and post 'Good News' for gentiles. You didn't add anything to that, simply a side track about theology about heaven. I didn't post to gain your endorsement, so it doesn't matter if you're interested or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 If you say so. Why would I address your point? As I said, I was talking about pre and post 'Good News' for gentiles. You didn't add anything to that, simply a side track about theology about heaven. I didn't post to gain your endorsement, so it doesn't matter if you're interested or not. Then you will excuse me for declining to be sidetracked by your tangent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Then you will excuse me for declining to be sidetracked by your tangent. Ha. You do realise you replied to my post in the first place, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26). I don't think God would make the conditions for people harder or more harsh than prior to the time of the Gospel; it is the Good news afterall. God is all about love and all he does is take people in that direction. People themselves are damaged, hurt, misunderstood or 'bad' for various reasons and the heart is only really known to God, not us. I see Hell as meaning many things in the Bible, and in the tradition, some things being universal to all of us and some specific. I see it more as a spiritual prison, but not just in a punitive sense. Most of the punishment aspects and the 'pay back' attitudes seem more about human expectations and cultural mindset/psychology than anything about God. God is about reconciliation and rebuilding relationship always, period.. We are supposed to also be apart of that work. I hope most people will eventually find their way to God. But I think it's possible some could, at least in theory, never want to do so. But the Law of Moses which was the condition God gave to His people to be justified was harder and more harsh. Edited June 4, 2015 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 But the Law of Moses which was the condition God gave to His people to be justified was harder and more harsh. I was addressing the challenges and comparisons of theology posed, mostly in terms of gentiles, as I said in my second post. The challenge for the church now is that the requirements for non Jews pre Christianity were far easier to meet than those posed by the religion that was supposed to be good news to them. How could it be that Christianity become something that was harsher and harder for non Jews to follow if it was supposed to be good news to rejoice over? Some sects, and even Catholicism, have gone through stages of using theology such as hell as a means to exclude and control rather than build up and move people towards Gods love. Love is centre stage and all the other doctrines and rules are simply window dressing to illuminate and centre that point. If anything goes against this then something has gone wrong along the line. As much of the concepts around hell are mostly transactional, in terms of reward and punishment, I believe much of this was concerned with human need and not God. The lords prayer is a direct challenge to such thinking also - if a world really forgives and feels the wrongs then where is the need for an everlasting hell? An everlasting hell for large groups of people for a life of say 75 years of sin on earth? Really? It makes more sense, knowing Gods love and concern, to hope most people will eventually regain relationship with God ( and us). People are the problem always, not God. In terms of Judaism, yes aspects were harder. But for everyone else, not so. For the Jews it wasn't uniformally so at all times either and there is academic work about whether it all orginated at the same time, by the same writers (if they existed) for all places etc. Jesus didn't exactly take a literal application to Jewish law! He was seen as a heretic!! Law is always secondary, that's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Ha. You do realise you replied to my post in the first place, right? I mistakenly assumed you had something worthwhile to contribute to this discussion. We all make mistakes in our beliefs. Luckily that one will not send me to hell. Edited June 4, 2015 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I mistakenly assumed you had something worthwhile to contribute to this discussion. We all make mistakes in our beliefs. Luckily that one will not send me to hell. good for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I was addressing the challenges and comparisons of theology posed, mostly in terms of gentiles, as I said in my second post. The challenge for the church now is that the requirements for non Jews pre Christianity were far easier to meet than those posed by the religion that was supposed to be good news to them. How could it be that Christianity become something that was harsher and harder for non Jews to follow if it was supposed to be good news to rejoice over? Some sects, and even Catholicism, have gone through stages of using theology such as hell as a means to exclude and control rather than build up and move people towards Gods love. Love is centre stage and all the other doctrines and rules are simply window dressing to illuminate and centre that point. If anything goes against this then something has gone wrong along the line. As much of the concepts around hell are mostly transactional, in terms of reward and punishment, I believe much of this was concerned with human need and not God. The lords prayer is a direct challenge to such thinking also - if a world really forgives and feels the wrongs then where is the need for an everlasting hell? An everlasting hell for large groups of people for a life of say 75 years of sin on earth? Really? It makes more sense, knowing Gods love and concern, to hope most people will eventually regain relationship with God ( and us). People are the problem always, not God. In terms of Judaism, yes aspects were harder. But for everyone else, not so. For the Jews it wasn't uniformally so at all times either and there is academic work about whether it all orginated at the same time, by the same writers (if they existed) for all places etc. Jesus didn't exactly take a literal application to Jewish law! He was seen as a heretic!! Law is always secondary, that's why. Christ teaches that Hell is everlasting. You clearly have doubts if not reject that. You do not believe Christ, ok so bet it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Christ teaches that Hell is everlasting. You clearly have doubts if not reject that. You do not believe Christ, ok so bet it. It's good to read history and Catholic theology books sometimes you know. Maybe try Urs Von Balthasar, great Catholic theologian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 It's good to read history and Catholic theology books sometimes you know. Maybe try Urs Von Balthasar, great Catholic theologian. I have read his works, I do not believe in his "hope", his hope requires I doubt the words of Christ. I find Balthasar's hope to be false and a sort of neo-universalism, or an attempt to find a loop hole around the Church's condemnation of universalism. I believe the words of Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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