Ireland Reff/ Marriage

[Nihil Obstat]

Wrong. I agree with everything the Church teaches. EVERYYTHING. I just don't believe 98 % of people are going to hell while the best Catholics of all time who did everything right are the only ones in Heaven. I think Purgatory is where a lot of decent people get to go who weren't perfect in this life. I trust in God's mercy. I trust if He forgives the lunatics putting Him on the cross then He's gonna forgive good willed people who walk in love. Not just smug Catholics who have tons and tons of religious works and thank God they're not like non Catholics and the Pagans.

Who said 98%? Who ever implied that I think salvation has *anything* to do with works? Not me, I guarantee it. The problem here is your attitude and your insistence in taking everything as a personal attack. 

​and why don't you weep like christ did? how can you be so peaceful when god wasn't?

How do you know I do not? 

 

It's what you are insinuating. You make a point to emphasize how almost all of humanity will go to hell. This is what your Priest preaches. While not certain, I'm sure when someone like Father Barron has a brighter outlook and trust in the goodness of God and His mercy you guys detest that. Just like Voris does when he attacks him in his videos. If 98% of humanity goes to hell then it's fact only the best Catholics of all time get into Heaven. Everyone else burns in hell forever. God is good.

Again, who are the best Catholics of all time? What does the Church teach in terms of what is required of us? What has the Church always taught? What did Christ Himself say? 

​why do you think jesus cried out 'why have you forsaken me' even when he knew that this was how things was going to go and willingly gave himself up to it?

jesus' faith in the father was shaken even when his father acted precisely as he told jesus he would act. but jesus' response was not some meek dumb lamb to the slaughter. we do not worship a faceless heartless stone. we worship the god of gethsemane, the lamb slain from the beginning of the world, the bleating and bleeding one. we know that jesus felt a deep disturbance and let loose a cry from his heart because he felt abandoned and afraid at the point of death.

and jesus is the perfect embodiment of love and faith.

what would be strange is if you, a flawed human far less than jesus, DIDN'T feel some kind of disturbance at the certain knowledge that most people in the world are going to be deprived of god's love, that god's wrath will be more powerful than his mercy, etc etc.

Sorry, but that is straight blasphemy. Jesus' faith was not shaken, nor could it have been. Can God doubt Himself? The very idea is ludicrous. Do you actually know what is meant by that quotation from the Cross, "My God my God, why have you forsaken me"? Because if you are saying that shows a shaken faith, then I think you need to step back for a bit.

[Nihil Obstat]

I am sorry, but it is disconcerting that on a Catholic forum I have to defend the idea that some people go to hell.

[Nihil Obstat]

I was out of line for saying you're smug on here. I actually don't think you are. You walk the line well. Most don't do it as gracefully and as a result they push people away from God and his mercy. 

I appreciate the apology, but the only line I walk is in trying to be faithful to what the Church teaches and has always taught. Smugness has nothing to do with it.

[truthfinder]

I'll just chime in with some side ephemera - the parish isn't as isolated as it might be portrayed. Many do attend because of the orthodox teaching, but it is a shared parish so some people who can't make the OF Mass will attend the EF.  Also, some people stumble upon it because of the Mass time itself and don't know it's an EF.  Others aren't Catholic at all who attend.  It's really a mixed bag.  

I will also say, that these priests did once give a talk on the Four Last things, and on the discussion of Heaven, it was illustrated how you could be reasonably sure you were on the way to Heaven.  Although not a necessarily a walk in the park, the talk did give hope (certainly needed after the other Last Things).  Essentially boiled down to being faithful to God's commandments and the commandments of His Bride, the Church (and also ways to identify growth in the virtues).  Only God will make the decision in the end, but it will be because of our own choices.

[Socrates]

That's the thing. Don't you go to your parish specifically because all the people already think this way? Your parochial vicar was merely preaching to the choir. It probably cost him little. Now preaching from the catechism about the bombing of Hiroshima being a crime, it would probably get him in trouble. In spite of that being timeless Catholic Truth.

In most parishes it's reversed. N either case the priests just usually give people what they want to hear. 

​You're making an awful lot of presumptions here about people you don't even know.  (Though I shouldn't be shocked; this is, after all, teh interwebz.)

I don't presume to know what everyone in my parish thinks about everything, nor do I particularly care.  Being an FSSP parish, it's probably safe to assume that people tend to lean to the right generally, but people who attend traditional Latin Mass are not monolithic.  Following the sermon I mentioned someone congratulated the priest after mass, and mentioned that a few people near him walked out during the sermon.  I've also seen an Obama bumper sticker in the the parking lot (though I don't think it was a regular parishioner), but it's safe to say that not every person who attends the mass is necessarily conservative or perfectly orthodox.  And sadly, now even many "conservatives" agree with the "gay rights" agenda at least to a certain extent.

The reason I attend that parish is primarily because of the beauty and reverence of the liturgy, and absence of liturgical abuse, as well as that the priests are solid and orthodox in what they preach, and seem to be earnestly striving for holiness and to increase the holiness of those in the Church.

Also, my wife attended there before I even moved to the area.  I did not start attending specifically because of what I thought all the parishioners thought about "gay marriage."

Also, I think you're out of line to accuse the priest of merely preaching to the choir and telling the people what he thinks they want to hear.  He preaches what he believes, and from what I've heard doesn't seem particularly concerned about that the congregation thinks or wants to hear.  I don't agree with him myself on every single thing, but I like the fact that he, and the other priests say things, both from the pulpit, and in the confessional, that take challenge me, and take me out of my "comfort zone."  I haven't heard him preach specifically on Hiroshima, but if he did condemn it, it wouldn't surprise me.  Many "conservative" orthodox Catholics I know are against those bombings of civilian populations, and he's made plenty of statements more controversial than that.  (And such sermons tend to be more on contemporary issues, rather than something done 70 years ago.)

If you actually knew the parochial vicar, you wouldn't so smugly dismiss him as merely pandering to the crowd.  It may take more courage to preach against sodomitic "marriage" and behavior to a largely liberal congregation, but that doesn't mean that the truth shouldn't be taught.

I've also heard priests preach against things such as abortion and contraception in non-"trad" parishes, and I applaud them for it.

My earlier post was more against the idea that priests don't have time to preach about contemporary moral issues from the pulpit.

[Guest]

I am sorry, but it is disconcerting that on a Catholic forum I have to defend the idea that some people go to hell.

Who's saying no one will go to hell?

[Socrates]

​So, again, did he say "hell"?  In our sense of the word?  He spoke Aramaic.  What did he say in Aramaic?  Jesus didn't speak English, to my knowledge.  The NT was written in Greek, apparently.  What is the ancient Greek translation of the Aramaic word for "hell"?

​The theology of Hell long predates English translations of the Bible, and was universally agreed on by the Church Fathers, who understood and wrote in Greek, and a number of whom were fluent in Hebrew.  The Christian theology of Hell was well established long before the English word "Hell" was ever used to describe it.  Jesus Himself describes it as a place of unending torture "where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched"  (Mark 9:44.)

The ideas that Hell does not exist, does not last, or that nobody goes there, are extremely recent in Christian circles, and would have been rejected by all early Christians, not to mention Christ Himself.

[Guest]

I appreciate the apology, but the only line I walk is in trying to be faithful to what the Church teaches and has always taught. Smugness has nothing to do with it.

Ok but there are a lot of "traditionalist types" who are very smug and judgemental. They act as if only the best select few Catholics will wind up in Heaven. They're pretty much modern day Pharisees. In my opinion initially you come off this way. But you switch gears like a skilled Texas Holden player will do. So it's not fair to lump you/ your Internet persona in with them. I'm curious what are your thoughts on Voris's attacks on Father Barron?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Guest

[PhuturePriest]

​The theology of Hell long predates English translations of the Bible, and was universally agreed on by the Church Fathers, who understood and wrote in Greek, and a number of whom were fluent in Hebrew.  The Christian theology of Hell was well established long before the English word "Hell" was ever used to describe it.  Jesus Himself describes it as a place of unending torture "where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched"  (Mark 9:44.)

The ideas that Hell does not exist, does not last, or that nobody goes there, are extremely recent in Christian circles, and would have been rejected by all early Christians, not to mention Christ Himself.

​I do have to correct you on one thing, actually: There was a very early heresy in the Church (I believe Origenism, but I might be wrong) that believed hell is only temporary, and that all would eventually be in heaven. However, this was immediately denounced across the board by the Bishops of the day. It might have even been denounced in a council, either local or ecumenical, but I can't be certain.

[Guest]

There are very evil people who hate God and hell is the place for them. Hell definitely exist.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Guest

[Norseman82]

​Does it bother you at all then, that most of the people you know and presumably love will suffer eternally? How does one deal with that emotionally and mentally?

 

​It does sadden me, but at the same time I have decided to not let them drag me down with them.

[Nihil Obstat]

Ok but there are a lot of "traditionalist types" who are very smug and judgemental. They act as if only the best select few Catholics will wind up in Heaven. They're pretty much modern day Pharisees. In my opinion initially you come off this way. But you switch gears like a skilled Texas Holden player will do. So it's not fair to lump you/ your Internet persona in with them. I'm curious what are your thoughts on Voris's attacks on Father Barron?

I find your more conciliatory posts to be more insulting than your actual attacks. Telling me how well I "switch gears" implies major duplicity on my part.

[Ice_nine]

I am sorry, but it is disconcerting that on a Catholic forum I have to defend the idea that some people go to hell.

​oh come on. First the idea was that most, not "some," people go to hell. Don't change your words now, if few are saved then "most" go to hell, right?

Secondly zero people are making you even defend this idea, and if any of them are implying that no one goes to hell, it's the two non-catholics in this conversation so I don't understand the disconcert you are experiencing.

But your defense of the doctrine of hell is not what the conversation is even about. It's about emotionally and mentally dealing with it and how all of your responses indicate that it's no trouble for you to do so. You're not even defending anything. You don't have to defend your emotional response. I'm just saying I don't understand how one can't be bothered by the idea, and I still don't understand it.

 

[Guest]

I find your more conciliatory posts to be more insulting than your actual attacks. Telling me how well I "switch gears" implies major duplicity on my part.

Haha No duplicity is not what I'm implying. This is a forum. People have internet personas. Although some posters probably do mirror their actual real life selves and opinions they would state in public very much. And their tone and the way they would say it. Perhaps your phatmass self is a 100 % mirror of you in real life. I'm guessing probaly so. That's a good thing you are knowledgeable of the faith. What I mean by switch gears is you are not all fire n brimstone 24 7. I also see post from you about God's mercy. I've encountered posters who honestly believe only the best Catholics will go to Heaven. They have no respect for Christians who are not Catholic let alone the Pagans. I think you're smart guy so I really don't need to explain all this. And what are your thoughts about Voris's attacks on Father Barron?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

And I made the Holdem reference because I know you enjoy the game.