Yaatee Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 The handle on the door to hell is on the inside - or so I once heard it described. That 'few will be saved', seen through this lens, implies that few wish for eternal happiness enough to take the necessary steps to get there - e.g. Baptism, a life of fidelity to Christ, His Church, and the Sacraments, etc. Where does this put the millions of Hindus and Buddhists who live alongside Christians but who do not choose to be converted? No one deserves hell. Not Stalin, Hitler or Mao. Not Judas. Not Tsarnaev, the Marathon bomber, who may ultimately be executed. All of these folks believed that they were right and justified in their actions. Not the rotten career criminal who recently shot and killed a decorated veteran and policceman in my town. No one can know what is in the heart of any human. The problem with this doctrine is how can anybody be certain (s)he is going to heaven? If the statistics say that few are making it, how do you know that you will? You may be lucky enough to have someone administer last rites to you on your deathbed, which requires a priest, which is increasingly unlikely to happen. You may be able to receive the host, if you're conscious. How can you be sure? Where is the 'consolation' here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 This is part of the problem. Faithful priests often think they are hamstrung to the Gospel in their preaching. They aren't, if they've read the various instructions. And in cases like a universal vote in matters that affect society and morals, it is incumbent on the clergy to preach on these matters. They absolutely can preach on matters of faith, moral and catechesis, not just the Gospel - although the bible contains all of it anyways. There are ways to link the the readings and preaching together. The bishops should have absolutely been stronger, but in the end, it is the priest who has more regular interaction with the parishioners (even they attend church at all). Considering there were at least a couple priests who openly stated that they were voting yes, it's not just the Bishops. Well said. I heard the parochial vicar at my parish give a strong homily at a Sunday mass concerning the evils of the push for same-sex "marriage" and the militant homosexual agenda. He's also mentioned it at other times in homilies on other matters. When immorality and evil is being pushed heavily in the public sphere, in things such as "gay marriage" and abortion, priests have a duty to speak out against it. Not that every sermon need to be focuses on those topics, but preaching on them at least a few times a year hardly places an intolerable burden on priests. Of course, in some parishes, it may not be what people wanted to hear, but the priesthood is no job for cowards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Is there any proof, or even evidence, that anyone is in hell? Well, for believing Christians, we have the words of Jesus Christ Himself, Who spoke many different times in the Gospels about Hell, and the need to avoid it. If there is in fact no Hell, or if nobody goes there, then Christ would be either a fool or a liar, and then there's no point in calling oneself "Christian." For the Christian, Christ's word should be evidence enough. But if you don't believe in Christ and His mission of salvation, then it's silly and pointless to argue about who is or isn't saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 The concept of universal salvation is a very large step on the way to total apostasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Well, for believing Christians, we have the words of Jesus Christ Himself, Who spoke many different times in the Gospels about Hell, and the need to avoid it. If there is in fact no Hell, or if nobody goes there, then Christ would be either a fool or a liar, and then there's no point in calling oneself "Christian." For the Christian, Christ's word should be evidence enough. But if you don't believe in Christ and His mission of salvation, then it's silly and pointless to argue about who is or isn't saved. So, again, did he say "hell"? In our sense of the word? He spoke Aramaic. What did he say in Aramaic? Jesus didn't speak English, to my knowledge. The NT was written in Greek, apparently. What is the ancient Greek translation of the Aramaic word for "hell"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 The concept of universal salvation is a very large step on the way to total apostasy. So one has to not believe in hell to be moral? I know an awful lot of mpral people who don't believe in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) So one has to not believe in hell to be moral? I know an awful lot of mpral people who don't believe in hell. One has to believe in hell to be a real Christian. That is certain. I do not much care what atheists or pagans think of our theology. Frankly I have more important things to worry about. Edited May 31, 2015 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) I believe in hell but I believe people who love and try to do their best will make it to purgatory. If you really believe that only the best Catholics of all time will make it to Heaven that's your choice. I hope you're wrong. Edited May 31, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) And you have some good post but man you come off smug. Edited May 31, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Are you like that in real life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Does it bother you at all then, that most of the people you know and presumably love will suffer eternally? How does one deal with that emotionally and mentally? According to the best Catholics of all time someone like my Grandma will burn in hell for eternity. Not because she's an evil person. She's one of the most loving people I have met. But she only has a Crucifix hanging in her house and only has faith in Christ and God. She doesn't go to Mass. So obviously according to the best Catholics of all time it's going to be burning in hell for eternity for her. Never mind Jesus forgiving the people who were beating and nailing him to the cross. And the woman caught in adultery. That surely was Jesus out of character and being way more forgiving then He normally would be. On judgement day it will be strictly business. Only the best Catholics of all time in Heaven. The other 98% of human population will burn forever in the depths of hell. God is good. Edited May 31, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puellapaschalis Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 No one deserves hell. On the contrary; no-one deserves Heaven. The consolation is that Christ's Passion achieved Atonement, thus making it even possible that anyone could have eternal happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I believe in hell but I believe people who love and try to do their best will make it to purgatory. If you really believe that only the best Catholics of all time will make it to Heaven that's your choice. I hope you're wrong. Where did I say "only the best Catholics goto heaven"? What would that statement even mean if I had said it? Are you like that in real life? That is a silly thing to say. According to the best Catholics of all time someone like my Grandma will burn in hell for eternity. Not because she's an evil person. She's one of the most loving people I have met. But she only has a Crucifix hanging in her house and only has faith in Christ and God. She doesn't go to Mass. So obviously according to the best Catholics of all time it's going to be burning in hell for eternity for her. Never mind Jesus forgiving the people who were beating and nailing him to the cross. And the woman caught in adultery. That surely was Jesus out of character and being way more forgiving then He normally would be. On judgement day it will be strictly business. Only the best Catholics of all time in Heaven. The other 98% of human population will burn forever in the depths of hell. God is good. Who are the best Catholics of all time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kia ora Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 No. I am confident that God is just, therefore I am confident that nobody goes to hell who does not fully deserve it, and who does not choose it of their free will. that's not really what the question was asking. this is like asking 'aren't you disturbed that there are people in the world who are suffering deeply in all sorts of ways' and then answering 'no because i'm confident that god is just and that there's a reason for everything'. maybe so, but the question is asking about you and your emotional character, not about how confident you are. if someone isn't disturbed by the suffering in the world and justifies that by saying that god is just and good, then i think that person is probably messed up in the heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 that's not really what the question was asking. this is like asking 'aren't you disturbed that there are people in the world who are suffering deeply in all sorts of ways' and then answering 'no because i'm confident that god is just and that there's a reason for everything'. maybe so, but the question is asking about you and your emotional character, not about how confident you are. if someone isn't disturbed by the suffering in the world and justifies that by saying that god is just and good, then i think that person is probably messed up in the heart. My faith in God is not shaken when He acts precisely as He tells us He acts. God tells us many will be cast into the outer darkness because they have rejected Him. Why should this disturb me if it proves to be true? He also teaches us that each of us is offered the grave required to accept Him. There is no trickery involved. No surprises. We have everything we need. I am at peace with that even if it sometimes seems like a difficult teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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