Ireland Reff/ Marriage

[Benedictus]

​I have read his works, I do not believe in his "hope", his hope requires I doubt the words of Christ. I find Balthasar's hope to be false and a sort of neo-universalism, or an attempt to find a loop hole around the Church's condemnation of universalism. I believe the words of Jesus Christ.

​well, at least you're not a fundamentalist

[veritasluxmea]

You know what, I don't get why hell is so upsetting. You literally don't have to go there, it's not mandatory that anyone goes to hell. It's like being angry over the fact that fire burns you if you put your hand in it. Sure, I feel for people's pain, but if they insist on putting their hand in fire even after knowing better, I'm not going to get mad at the fire. God does literally everything He possibly can to keep people from going there, but He leaves it entirely up to them. No one accidentally ends up in hell, and He doesn't hold our weakness against us (st Therese of Lisieux, for example). If you have to get mad over hell get mad over the fact that people chose it! 

[Guest]

Who's getting mad over hell? What's being questioned is if almost everyone is going there.

[little2add]

 

everyone  knows that  you got to go through hell before you get to heaven

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2015 by little2add

[Starets]

​

The Church also relied too much on cultural stability, devotion and only gave simple instruction to the population. They didn't bother to educate or explain things that well. This resulted in both fundamentalism on the one hand and a very lax approach on the other. They built up in sand and the tide simply came in. Sadly, much of it is the fault of the church.  Karma hurts but a resurrection is possible, although I suspect God will want things to be very different and it won't be business as usual anymore.

​That would certainly go a long way towards explaining Richard Bennett. I was astounded by his story of being an ordained priest in Ireland and yet knowing so little of Catholic doctrine. Now I understand how he could have been led astray so easily

[Anomaly]

Who's getting mad over hell? What's being questioned is if almost everyone is going there.

It's not a question for Catholics.  Non-Catholics are likely going to or are in hell.   Most Catholics in recent times are looking at the same unhappy fate.    

The question is really why be a good person today when that is not making much of a difference in your chances, LOL?

[dominicansoul]

​When I think of the word disturbing I think of an emotional reaction to something grotesque and horrid. I think eternal suffering falls under that umbrella.

Faith has little to do with emotion. I can trust in God but still be really bothered emotionally and mentally with the things that He does (or things people say that He does). I don't understand how you can picture your mother burning forever and passively saying "praised be to God" without feeling sick about it and perhaps mentally unable to reconcile how someone you love, who God supposedly loves way more, is suffering because God deemed the person didn't do enough.

​It is not God who condemns nor damns souls, it is the souls themselves.   Every person in hell is there because he didn't want God in his life, didn't love God, and behaved as if God did not matter.  They chose not to follow the Way, the Truth and the Life, but their own way.  They are there, not because "God deemed the person didn't do enough," but because God, in his MERCY, has given them exactly what they desire:   a life without Him.

 

It would be horrible if we knew of our loved ones burning in hell.  This is why I'm glad we don't know (lest we experience a terrible apparition from them telling us of their fate! yikes! )

 

I believe too, that when we reach heaven, we will most likely forget and NEVER know the loved ones who were lost.  Jesus says that he will not know them, so I doubt we will know them as well... 

 

IT's so important to pray for poor sinners, especially for our own souls and those we love...

[dominicansoul]

​why do you think jesus cried out 'why have you forsaken me' even when he knew that this was how things was going to go and willingly gave himself up to it?

jesus' faith in the father was shaken even when his father acted precisely as he told jesus he would act. but jesus' response was not some meek dumb lamb to the slaughter. we do not worship a faceless heartless stone. we worship the god of gethsemane, the lamb slain from the beginning of the world, the bleating and bleeding one. we know that jesus felt a deep disturbance and let loose a cry from his heart because he felt abandoned and afraid at the point of death.

and jesus is the perfect embodiment of love and faith.

what would be strange is if you, a flawed human far less than jesus, DIDN'T feel some kind of disturbance at the certain knowledge that most people in the world are going to be deprived of god's love, that god's wrath will be more powerful than his mercy, etc etc.

​I think it's a good example to use of how deep Christs' sufferings were and how close he is to our human nature by His crying out this way.  (How many of us have had moments like these, where we cry out to the Lord in our desolation?)  But in truth, Jesus  was quoting a very important PSALM that the JEWS would have certainly known.  It is PSALM 22, which speaks of the MESSIAH that is to come and rescue God's people from sin and death.  It speaks of the suffering He would suffer, but how in the end, He would be VICTORIOUS.  I find it fascinating to read this Psalm, knowing it was written generations upon generations before these events happened, and speaks so clearly of Jesus Christ!  

1For the leader; according to “The deer of the dawn.”^* A psalm of David.

I

2My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?

Why so far from my call for help,

from my cries of anguish?^a

3My God, I call by day, but you do not answer;

by night, but I have no relief.^b

4Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;

you are the glory of Israel.^c

5In you our fathers trusted;

they trusted and you rescued them.

6To you they cried out and they escaped;

in you they trusted and were not disappointed.^d

7^*But I am a worm, not a man,

scorned by men, despised by the people.^e

8All who see me mock me;

they curl their lips and jeer;

they shake their heads at me:^f

9“He relied on the LORD—let him deliver him;

if he loves him, let him rescue him.”^g

10For you drew me forth from the womb,

made me safe at my mother’s breasts.

11Upon you I was thrust from the womb;

since my mother bore me you are my God.^h

12Do not stay far from me,

for trouble is near,

and there is no one to help.ⁱ

II

13Many bulls^* surround me;

fierce bulls of Bashan^* encircle me.

14They open their mouths against me,

lions that rend and roar.^j

15Like water my life drains away;

all my bones are disjointed.

My heart has become like wax,

it melts away within me.

16As dry as a potsherd is my throat;

my tongue cleaves to my palate;

you lay me in the dust of death.^*

17Dogs surround me;

a pack of evildoers closes in on me.

They have pierced my hands and my feet

18I can count all my bones.^k

They stare at me and gloat;

19they divide my garments among them;

for my clothing they cast lots.^l

20But you, LORD, do not stay far off;

my strength, come quickly to help me.

21Deliver my soul from the sword,

my life from the grip of the dog.

22Save me from the lion’s mouth,

my poor life from the horns of wild bulls.^m

III

23Then I will proclaim your name to my brethren;

in the assembly I will praise you:^*n

24“You who fear the LORD, give praise!

All descendants of Jacob, give honor;

show reverence, all descendants of Israel!

25For he has not spurned or disdained

the misery of this poor wretch,

Did not turn away^* from me,

but heard me when I cried out.

26I will offer praise in the great assembly;

my vows I will fulfill before those who fear him.

27The poor^* will eat their fill;

those who seek the LORD will offer praise.

May your hearts enjoy life forever!”^o

IV

28All the ends of the earth

will remember and turn to the LORD;

All the families of nations

will bow low before him.^p

29For kingship belongs to the LORD,

the ruler over the nations.^q

30^*All who sleep in the earth

will bow low before God;

All who have gone down into the dust

will kneel in homage.

31And I will live for the LORD;

my descendants will serve you.

32The generation to come will be told of the Lord,

that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn

the deliverance you have brought.^r

[Benedictus]

​That would certainly go a long way towards explaining Richard Bennett. I was astounded by his story of being an ordained priest in Ireland and yet knowing so little of Catholic doctrine. Now I understand how he could have been led astray so easily

​Yes, he also framed his past to make it interesting to an antiCatholic audience. I think much of the reality of his past got lost as the years went on.

[Catlick]

​That would certainly go a long way towards explaining Richard Bennett. I was astounded by his story of being an ordained priest in Ireland and yet knowing so little of Catholic doctrine. Now I understand how he could have been led astray so easily

​If this source is correct, Bennett was educated by the Jesuits in the late 1940s, early 1950s. I'm not familiar with the Irish situation of the Society, but at that time the Jesuits housed great scholars and educators. Bennett also studied with the Dominicans - second only to the Jesuits in learning at that time - and attended a university in Rome. It's quite improbable that this guy knew substantially less about theology than the average parish priest. 

[Benedictus]

 

He does assert things that are clear mistakes and or misunderstandings regarding Catholic beliefs, but the audience he targets won't necessarily notice or know it. He may well assert things knowing they are wrong, as a way to discredit and gain support for his new position. If he isn't ignorant then he is clearly playing to the gallery. It's nicer, at least, to think he simply didn't have good formation. There are good reasons for that, especially in those times and in Ireland.

In terms of the Jesuits: They have scholars and educators but most have always been in University departments. The schools Jesuits run are foundations; they have always employed lay staff to do most of the teaching. Jesuit brothers, and those in training as scholastics, often took on teaching but this alone doesn't ensure extensive or good teaching of Catholic doctrine. Most Jesuits in schools were administrators, Chaplains etc.

Not all Jesuits and Dominicans are academically orientated. Teaching, and formation, pre Vatican ll varied and wasn't always extensive.  Formation approaches changed after the late 60's, prior to which early formation and seminary students wouldn't have been exposed to extensive or advanced theological input. They learnt enough to do the tasks and work they had to carry out, at least in the main. We may see such approaches as fairly rote. Advanced studies were set aside for those permitted to do by the order, especially to operate as professors or theologians. The situation is a bit more fluid now as lay brothers can pursue doctorates, as an example.

 

[Yaatee]

It's not a question for Catholics.  Non-Catholics are likely going to or are in hell.   Most Catholics in recent times are looking at the same unhappy fate.    

The question is really why be a good person today when that is not making much of a difference in your chances, LOL?

​I don't think that it is Catholic doctrine that non-Catholics are "likely going to or are in hell."  Pope Francis himself said, "Who am I to judge?"

[Nihil Obstat]

​I don't think that it is Catholic doctrine that non-Catholics are "likely going to or are in hell."  Pope Francis himself said, "Who am I to judge?"

Which may well go down in history as one of the more unfortunate phrases uttered by a pontiff in our times. So open to heretical and anti Christian readings. I understand he probably did not mean it that way, but I do not think he should have said it at all 

[Yaatee]

Which may well go down in history as one of the more unfortunate phrases uttered by a pontiff in our times. So open to heretical and anti Christian readings. I understand he probably did not mean it that way, but I do not think he should have said it at all 

​Well, who am I to judge the pope?  I suspect that his forthcoming encyclical on poverty and climate change isn't going to talk much about hell, freemasonry, or other favorite topics on this forum.

[Nihil Obstat]

​Well, who am I to judge the pope?  I suspect that his forthcoming encyclical on poverty and climate change isn't going to talk much about hell, freemasonry, or other favorite topics on this forum.

​