Duggar scandal

[beatitude]

PhuturePriest, first of all, you're not the only person in the world to have experienced abuse or to have a close relative who has. It's an unfortunately common thing and telling people that they "don't know what it's like to have to figure out what to do" is a huge assumption on your part. In saying "shame on them", you are also making assumptions about whoever disclosed this information to the TV company. It was hushed up for years and it's unlikely that anyone knew except those directly involved, so doesn't it occur to you that the person who made the disclosure might very well be someone who was affected? We can't know. Whoever it was and no matter why they did it, they are entitled to the same level of compassion and privacy that you want to extend to Josh Duggar.

There is a reason why child protection legislation exists, because however difficult it can be to implement effectively, things would be an awful lot worse without it. For the sake of abuse victims who may be watching all this play out, it's important to send a consistent message about abuse: you deserve to be heard, you deserve to be taken seriously, and you deserve for it to be stopped. Perpetrators also deserve help. Sending an adolescent perpetrator to help out with some home remodelling isn't 'dealing with it', and neither is getting your buddy who happens to be a police officer to give him an informal talking-to. I say this as someone who has been working with young people with severe emotional difficulties for years. No matter how charitable or forgiving you want to be, that was objectively poor decision-making. The fact that this whole affair only came to police attention after a family friend discovered a letter detailing the abuse in a book that had been loaned to them suggests that one or more of the victims felt it wasn't right - kids don't tend to write down detailed accounts of abuse and leave them as bookmarks for other people to find unless they need to express themselves badly, but aren't being given a way.

You are obviously a huge fan of the Duggars (or, more accurately, their TV show, as it's difficult to see what a family is really like from reality TV). Over the years you've talked about having a crush on the Duggar girls and thinking they're wonderful because of their long skirts and whatever else, so it does look as though your indignation over people's refusal to accept that this is all "in the past" is you being unhappy as a fan - you don't want the image of long-skirted Christian perfection to be spoiled. But everybody has feet of clay. It should not be shocking to discover that abuse can happen in such a family. We should pray for them and we should be compassionate, but that's not the same as trying to make out that what happened was all a mistake that got dealt with ages ago.

[PhuturePriest]

PhuturePriest, first of all, you're not the only person in the world to have experienced abuse or to have a close relative who has. It's an unfortunately common thing and telling people that they "don't know what it's like to have to figure out what to do" is a huge assumption on your part. In saying "shame on them", you are also making assumptions about whoever disclosed this information to the TV company. It was hushed up for years and it's unlikely that anyone knew except those directly involved, so doesn't it occur to you that the person who made the disclosure might very well be someone who was affected? We can't know. Whoever it was and no matter why they did it, they are entitled to the same level of compassion and privacy that you want to extend to Josh Duggar.

There is a reason why child protection legislation exists, because however difficult it can be to implement effectively, things would be an awful lot worse without it. For the sake of abuse victims who may be watching all this play out, it's important to send a consistent message about abuse: you deserve to be heard, you deserve to be taken seriously, and you deserve for it to be stopped. Perpetrators also deserve help. Sending an adolescent perpetrator to help out with some home remodelling isn't 'dealing with it', and neither is getting your buddy who happens to be a police officer to give him an informal talking-to. I say this as someone who has been working with young people with severe emotional difficulties for years. No matter how charitable or forgiving you want to be, that was objectively poor decision-making. The fact that this whole affair only came to police attention after a family friend discovered a letter detailing the abuse in a book that had been loaned to them suggests that one or more of the victims felt it wasn't right - kids don't tend to write down detailed accounts of abuse and leave them as bookmarks for other people to find unless they need to express themselves badly, but aren't being given a way.

You are obviously a huge fan of the Duggars (or, more accurately, their TV show, as it's difficult to see what a family is really like from reality TV). Over the years you've talked about having a crush on the Duggar girls and thinking they're wonderful because of their long skirts and whatever else, so it does look as though your indignation over people's refusal to accept that this is all "in the past" is you being unhappy as a fan - you don't want the image of long-skirted Christian perfection to be spoiled. But everybody has feet of clay. It should not be shocking to discover that abuse can happen in such a family. We should pray for them and we should be compassionate, but that's not the same as trying to make out that what happened was all a mistake that got dealt with ages ago.

​I don't think the Duggars are perfect, and I never have. I am a fan of the Duggars, but I am not coming to this as a fan, but as a person who wants privacy for the victims. They deserve privacy. They deserve to have this handled by the proper authorities, not to be psycho-analyzed and "defended" in the media for weeks on end. They don't want everyone to know about it, they just want it to be fixed, and us talking back and forth online and in the news will not accomplish that. 

If you care for the victims (which I'm sure you do), pray for them. We can't do anything other than that, and anything else is just a waste of the valuable time God gave us. We're not their family, we're not their friends, and we're not their counselors. We're not helping them by talking about them, but we will help them by praying for them. 

[Gabriela]

I think this kind of story only gets massive media attention because those involved in the "sexual revolution" need to convince themselves that they still have some moral standards. The reasoning goes: "Anyone can sleep with anyone these days and you're a judgmental Stone Age bigot if you object. We're not sexually out of control because, look, we still [for the moment] put on a show of outrage at the molestation of children. Obviously then, the Christians are wrong about the whole 'moral decline' thing. So there."

[puellapaschalis]

There is the third option: those of us who hold and aspire to the Christian standard of (sexual) relationships, and are thus also shocked and intensely disappointed by the failings of a family who put themselves on a pedestal. Being Christian doesn't necessitate being a 'leghumper'; if anything it means that this should be treated in a similar way to clergy abuse. 

[Gabriela]

There is the third option: those of us who hold and aspire to the Christian standard of (sexual) relationships, and are thus also shocked and intensely disappointed by the failings of a family who put themselves on a pedestal. Being Christian doesn't necessitate being a 'leghumper'; if anything it means that this should be treated in a similar way to clergy abuse. 

​Yeah, but these people (Christian people) aren't the ones who make such a public show out of the whole affair. Or if they are, then shame on them. We ought to know it's private.

[MarysLittleFlower]

For the love of all that is good and holy, stop talking about this. This is a private family matter. No one is obliged to know about it other than the proper authorities and the family itself, and this gawk-fest at what is a terrible situation for the family is by no means healthy. The fact that people talk about it in such professional and official tones is, quite honestly, offensive. 

Don't talk about them, don't speculate, don't claim what they did wrong and what they "should have done". You don't know what it's like to have something like this happen in your family, and you have no clue what it's like to be the sibling or parent of such abuse. You don't know what it's like to have to figure out what to do, how to do it, and try to make it as beneficial for both parties as possible. Your daughters were abused, and you want them to get help, but you're not going to just demonize your son and throw him to the curb; you want him to get healing and to have a successful and normal life, too. It's so much different when it's your child and children, and the truth of the matter is, there really isn't a "right way" to go about it other than making sure everyone gets the help they need. The problem occurs when you figure out what exactly that means, and I can tell you that CPS is such a broken and almost completely useless system that no loving parent would want to put their children through that experience. My counselor herself told me that in her experience these cases have only ever been complicated and worsened when CPS got involved, and that families who handle these things quietly (with proper counseling and measures taken) are much better off and well-adjusted at the end than those who go to CPS.

The Duggars were scared, confused, and shocked. They didn't know what to do, but their gut instinct to stay the hell away from CPS at all costs was a good one.

I agree it should be dealt with privately. 

Also one problem with child help services is that I heard at least in some places they give children from good families (for example orphans who didn't have a guardian appointed) and give them to homosexual couples. Priority is given to these couples at times. Not trying to generalize but just something I heard. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[hotpink]

​On what planet does "Sorry, we'd be on a television show for you guys, but our oldest son molested several of our daughters," make sense? It's been resolved. They took care of the issue. It had been taken care of for several years when the show was made. They are not obligated to tell anyone about it. I would rather have a wholesome family of genuinely good people who have had private family issues on a television show than the Kardashians, but maybe that's just me.

The problem is with private issues, especially regarding abuse and doubly especially sexual abuse is eventually the truth comes out.  ​Pretending it's solved and wrapped up in a bow is part of the issue.  This is not any old family issue.

 

​They are by no means "celebrities". The show is about their family and how they operate having so many children. The show is about showing their faith to everyone. They have avoided showing many of the hardships they've gone through in the past, including much of what they went through concerning their last miscarriage, because that's not what the show is about. A lot of good has come about from their show, and I am very glad they decided to do it.

You're very glad.  However, you do have to remember they put several children who were still healing from abuse (And it takes a lifetime) in from of a camera.​  Even if they didn't show hard things this is an egregious act against the girls.  Not only did they have to fake it for their other siblings and friends at times they had to fake it for the whole universe.  And if you're going to claim that they never had to do that then I think you're underestimating the situation.  It very well could be that everything was fine, but it also could be that it wasn't and I can't immagine the pain that putting on a perfect smile for literally the entire world (rather than your figurative "whole world" would do.

 

​I don't think the Duggars are perfect, and I never have. I am a fan of the Duggars, but I am not coming to this as a fan, but as a person who wants privacy for the victims. They deserve privacy. They deserve to have this handled by the proper authorities, not to be psycho-analyzed and "defended" in the media for weeks on end. They don't want everyone to know about it, they just want it to be fixed, and us talking back and forth online and in the news will not accomplish that. 

If you care for the victims (which I'm sure you do), pray for them. We can't do anything other than that, and anything else is just a waste of the valuable time God gave us. We're not their family, we're not their friends, and we're not their counselors. We're not helping them by talking about them, but we will help them by praying for them. 

​However, I think there is value in discussing this situation because we should discuss the proper treatment of abuse survivors, especially children.  I think we've seen where you've settled on the matter.  Despite the abuse you think it was appropriate for them to accept and make the show becuase "good" has come of it.  Other people see it diffferently.  I personally think that ther eare some things that should stop a family from beaming their lives on natonal television.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, although besides your liking of the "good" I fail to see a concrete example of how this show did more good than any of the other shows about large families.  It was more popular, perhaps, but on it's own I don't think it had any more special merit.

[CrossCuT]

The Duggars have made a choice to live their life in the public eye by making their family the focus of a reality TV show on TLC. With that comes both reward of fame/fortune but the loss of privacy. I am not surprised in any respect that the public who has been following the Duggars life for 10 seasons (not sure the exact seasons they have been on the air for) would feel let down by this occurrence. No one should be surprised that this case went viral. I still 100% believe that ANY child molester should have their name available to the public so that concerned parents are aware if they happen to live in close proximity.

I am not concerned about Josh (although I hope he has or will seek help), I am not concerned about the Duggars reality TV empire that is now canceled, but I am concerned about the victims. I hope that all this new media coverage will not uncover pain that they have put behind them.

Edited May 26, 2015 by CrossCuT

[franciscanheart]

This was more than a 'stupid mistake'. It was a crime. All of us did commit stupid mistakes as teenagers, but most of us did not commit crimes.

It was also not a crime that was dealt with properly at the time. Initially the Duggar parents claimed that everyone involved had received counselling, with Josh being sent to a treatment program, but on questioning by the police it was found that the 'treatment program' was three months helping a family friend with some home redecoration. This man was not a trained professional of any sort. The police interviewer asked if he was intended more as a mentor; Josh's mother replied, "Kind of, yeah."

It can be very hard to face up to the fact that someone you love and respect has done something so wrong. This is one of the reasons why we had cover-ups in the Church; people didn't want to believe that Fr So-and-so, who was otherwise so capable and friendly and helpful, could possibly have done that - no, it must have been some mistake, and everyone makes mistakes, don't they? But just as it's not compassionate to demonise someone over their crime, it's also not compassionate to gloss over it and make excuses for it. Josh needed to go to a real treatment program and he didn't get that. It's also impossible to say if the victims got the help and support they needed, but given that Josh's 'counselling' turned out to be a few months helping on a building project, it's doubtful.

It concerns me that some people seem to be more concerned about the potential damage that this could do to Christianity's image than they are to the damage that may have been done to the victims. This concern doesn't even make sense, as the type of people who will gossip over the Duggars and use this as a brush to smear all Christians are the type of people who had zero time or respect for Christianity to start with, and in any case Christ is always stronger than the sins of his followers. We give a better testament to our faith by being compassionate and yet just in how we respond to this - no uncharitable demonisations (e.g. "I always knew that family must be messed up!") but no equally uncharitable excuses either ("It was just a mistake he made when he was kid"). I think there is a risk that people idealise this family and by rationalising what went on they're trying to protect the image of them they've got from the TV, which isn't helpful.

​Very well said, beatitude.

 

PhuturePriest, first of all, you're not the only person in the world to have experienced abuse or to have a close relative who has. It's an unfortunately common thing and telling people that they "don't know what it's like to have to figure out what to do" is a huge assumption on your part. In saying "shame on them", you are also making assumptions about whoever disclosed this information to the TV company. It was hushed up for years and it's unlikely that anyone knew except those directly involved, so doesn't it occur to you that the person who made the disclosure might very well be someone who was affected? We can't know. Whoever it was and no matter why they did it, they are entitled to the same level of compassion and privacy that you want to extend to Josh Duggar.

There is a reason why child protection legislation exists, because however difficult it can be to implement effectively, things would be an awful lot worse without it. For the sake of abuse victims who may be watching all this play out, it's important to send a consistent message about abuse: you deserve to be heard, you deserve to be taken seriously, and you deserve for it to be stopped. Perpetrators also deserve help. Sending an adolescent perpetrator to help out with some home remodelling isn't 'dealing with it', and neither is getting your buddy who happens to be a police officer to give him an informal talking-to. I say this as someone who has been working with young people with severe emotional difficulties for years. No matter how charitable or forgiving you want to be, that was objectively poor decision-making. The fact that this whole affair only came to police attention after a family friend discovered a letter detailing the abuse in a book that had been loaned to them suggests that one or more of the victims felt it wasn't right - kids don't tend to write down detailed accounts of abuse and leave them as bookmarks for other people to find unless they need to express themselves badly, but aren't being given a way.

You are obviously a huge fan of the Duggars (or, more accurately, their TV show, as it's difficult to see what a family is really like from reality TV). Over the years you've talked about having a crush on the Duggar girls and thinking they're wonderful because of their long skirts and whatever else, so it does look as though your indignation over people's refusal to accept that this is all "in the past" is you being unhappy as a fan - you don't want the image of long-skirted Christian perfection to be spoiled. But everybody has feet of clay. It should not be shocking to discover that abuse can happen in such a family. We should pray for them and we should be compassionate, but that's not the same as trying to make out that what happened was all a mistake that got dealt with ages ago.

And again. Yes. Very well said.​

 

I think this kind of story only gets massive media attention because those involved in the "sexual revolution" need to convince themselves that they still have some moral standards. The reasoning goes: "Anyone can sleep with anyone these days and you're a judgmental Stone Age bigot if you object. We're not sexually out of control because, look, we still [for the moment] put on a show of outrage at the molestation of children. Obviously then, the Christians are wrong about the whole 'moral decline' thing. So there."

I think that's unfair and misguided. Adults consenting to sexual interaction with other adults does not mean that they think sex with anyone or anything is legit and shouldn't be frowned upon. You may think their morals loose and so incapable of recognizing the evil of sexualizing a child, but that is warped thinking.​

 

I agree it should be dealt with privately. 

Also one problem with child help services is that I heard at least in some places they give children from good families (for example orphans who didn't have a guardian appointed) and give them to homosexual couples. Priority is given to these couples at times. Not trying to generalize but just something I heard. 

​So, better to leave the child in an abusive situation than to provide (often temporary) shelter with healthy adults?

[CrossCuT]

I think that's unfair and misguided. Adults consenting to sexual interaction with other adults does not mean that they think sex with anyone or anything is legit and shouldn't be frowned upon. You may think their morals loose and so incapable of recognizing the evil of sexualizing a child, but that is warped thinking.​

​Yes! Thank you. I was going to say something similar.

[MarysLittleFlower]

​Very well said, beatitude.

 

And again. Yes. Very well said.​

 

I think that's unfair and misguided. Adults consenting to sexual interaction with other adults does not mean that they think sex with anyone or anything is legit and shouldn't be frowned upon. You may think their morals loose and so incapable of recognizing the evil of sexualizing a child, but that is warped thinking.​

 

​So, better to leave the child in an abusive situation than to provide (often temporary) shelter with healthy adults?

I didn't say that, but just to be careful, because the cases I described have been known to happen. That situation is damaging to kids too.. 

[franciscanheart]

I didn't say that, but just to be careful, because the cases I described have been known to happen. That situation is damaging to kids too.. 

​I dare say that taking children out of a home where they are, say, being raped, and putting them into a foster home where there are two adults of the same sex, is not a terrible move. The child's safety is of paramount importance.

[PhuturePriest]

I want to apologize for getting so angry before. This entire situation has just made me have intense flashbacks of when I went through something similar, and as a result I cannot think or speak about this topic without being too emotionally invested. It's just been the main topic of discussion everywhere (News, facebook, Phatmass, etc.) that after a while it became too much for me. 

Sorry again. I will continue avoiding this thread in the future. 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I want to apologize for getting so angry before. This entire situation has just made me have intense flashbacks of when I went through something similar, and as a result I cannot think or speak about this topic without being too emotionally invested. It's just been the main topic of discussion everywhere (News, facebook, Phatmass, etc.) that after a while it became too much for me. 

Sorry again. I will continue avoiding this thread in the future. 

​Now it's my turn to be incredibly proud of you for this post. 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

​I dare say that taking children out of a home where they are, say, being raped, and putting them into a foster home where there are two adults of the same sex, is not a terrible move. The child's safety is of paramount importance.

I don't think the children are safe in either. Even if they are safe physically in the second case, they are not morally safe. That's not of light importance.... What I would support more are maybe Catholic or pro family organizations that can remove the children from the danger but place them in families that will help their moral spiritual and emotional growth. I have read of people who grow up in same sex households (with a same sex couple) and there is much risk of them either being sexually confused or desensitized regarding Catholic moral teaching or both. One young man in particular spoke of his experience and the effect on him. He is still dealing with it years later. It affects a child's psychology, and their view of families, men, women, themselves...

Edited May 26, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower