Duggar scandal

[hotpink]

​You're being incredibly judgmental over something of which you none of the details of -- none of us do, which is simply why we can't make a judgment on it. Only God knows all the details, and we shouldn't be so presumptuous as to assume his job. 

​

Errm there have been some established facts

1) The Duggar's have stated that their motivation for the televison show is conversion

2) The Duggar's knowingly entered into a televison contract after having delt with civil authorities about the abuse of their girls by their son

3) The son confessed to both his home church and otherwise publicly about the abuse on more than one occasion, with some blaming the loss of the father's 2003 political race on it

4) There is atleast one broadcasting company, Harppo, of Oprah, who refused to deal with this family after finding out about the allegations and their truth.

 

From this we can also learn a few things

1) Teen on child, or child on child abuse is abuse.  peroid.

2) It is not good to subject young children to limelight, especally if that limelight is to show how good one is.

3) While we can neither confirm nor deny that the girls still are dealing with abuse, we can find it odd that while everyone else in the family participated in the girls wedding Josh did not.

4) We can find some fault in TLC for not researching facts when Oprah was able to find them out easily.

[hotpink]

​IVF isn't taking anything away from anybody.  They are using eggs and sperm that would otherwise be thrown out, and creating embryos. If they are using embryos, they are embryos that would otherwise be discarded. 

​Ok back to this debate.  Sorry, you're still pretending that parentage and genetics don't matter.  They do.  Eggs and sperm aren't like a used tissue, they have DNA material that has been carried down for generations and can create another human.  That human is entitled to know that information and be tided to those people.

Edited May 29, 2015 by hotpink

[puellapaschalis]

​IVF isn't taking anything away from anybody.  They are using eggs and sperm that would otherwise be thrown out, and creating embryos. If they are using embryos, they are embryos that would otherwise be discarded.  Gay couples often adopt the unadoptable,  older and/or handicapped children of color.  I saw one gay man cradle his adopted black son of a drug-addicted mother still in prison, who was named Noah.  I consider that child to be very fortunate.

​A child has the right to be conceived and born of his natural mother and father in the natural way and to be brought up and educated by them.

[Cherie]

​You're being incredibly judgmental over something of which you none of the details of -- none of us do, which is simply why we can't make a judgment on it. Only God knows all the details, and we shouldn't be so presumptuous as to assume his job. 

​The biggest problem here is that it seems probable that neither Josh Duggar, nor his victims, received proper counseling. I think professional counseling is important for anyone who experiences psychological trauma, and I'm not afraid to recommend that, nor am I afraid to be angry that his victims may not have gotten it, or even had access to it. Particularly knowing the kind of theology and world views this family espouses, it's concerning. Here's a page from an ATI (Advanced Training Insitute--founded by Bill Gothard, a person whom the Duggars supported) seminar on counseling. It's an absolute travesty: 

Should all of what Josh did have been made public? No. Should the Duggars have accepted the show in the first place? Probably not. Should Josh have been reported to the proper authorities? Yes. Should he and his victims should have received professional counseling? Yes. Since the story has broken, it's worth mentioning what's wrong, to prevent the improper handling of sexual abuse of minors in the future--or even to help prevent the abuse in the first place. It's a discussion worth having. It doesn't mean that we know exactly what happened, or that we're rashly judging the Duggars' souls. But IF certain things happened, THEN we can certainly make a judgement on the action that resulted. IF Josh and his victims didn't get proper counseling, THEN that is absolutely wrong. And I'll shout it from the rooftops if I have to. 

[hotpink]

​The biggest problem here is that it seems probable that neither Josh Duggar, nor his victims, received proper counseling. I think professional counseling is important for anyone who experiences psychological trauma, and I'm not afraid to recommend that, nor am I afraid to be angry that his victims may not have gotten it, or even had access to it. Particularly knowing the kind of theology and world views this family espouses, it's concerning. Here's a page from an ATI (Advanced Training Insitute--founded by Bill Gothard, a person whom the Duggars supported) seminar on counseling. It's an absolute travesty: 

 

Should all of what Josh did have been made public? No. Should the Duggars have accepted the show in the first place? Probably not. Should Josh have been reported to the proper authorities? Yes. Should he and his victims should have received professional counseling? Yes. Since the story has broken, it's worth mentioning what's wrong, to prevent the improper handling of sexual abuse of minors in the future--or even to help prevent the abuse in the first place. It's a discussion worth having. It doesn't mean that we know exactly what happened, or that we're rashly judging the Duggars' souls. But IF certain things happened, THEN we can certainly make a judgement on the action that resulted. IF Josh and his victims didn't get proper counseling, THEN that is absolutely wrong. And I'll shout it from the rooftops if I have to. 

​

Hi Cherie,  It dosn't take much digging to find that there were several close to the matter on the internet that posted in 2007 there was no real counseling for any of those involved.

 

However, like you said one of the vital parts of this is the way it was handled and it was viewed.  We have an insanely young offender who was improperly treated and at his orignal age of offending was statistically a victim himself.  We have atleast 5 investigated victims, 4 of whom lived with the offender and all 5 of whom had to act completely normal for cameras a mere 2 years later.

[Anomaly]

Bill Gothard, ousted for sexual harassment.   

I've read more of the Duggar scandal.  I blame the parents.  Josh and his victims absolutely should have gotten treatment long ago.  That's on JB & M. 

The events were not totally secret as Oprah's show learned of this in 2008 and cancelled a family appearance.   The parents continued with the public appearances which lead to the series.  No sane person could not foresee the potential for this blowing up   It was cruel for Jim Bob and Michelle to gamble the potential humiliation of Josh and the girls in order to seek fortune through fame.   It is extremely hypocritical if JB justified the risk as a trade off to publically evangelize. 

I am saddened at the public humiliation and hate that the kids, spouses, and grand kids will be subjected too.  

 

[Yaatee]

​Ok back to this debate.  Sorry, you're still pretending that parentage and genetics don't matter.  They do.  Eggs and sperm aren't like a used tissue, they have DNA material that has been carried down for generations and can create another human.  That human is entitled to know that information and be tided to those people.

​And infertile couples have the right to seek help with fertilization, using embryos/eggs/sperm that would otherwise be discarded or unused.

 

 

[beatitude]

​And infertile couples have the right to seek help with fertilization, using embryos/eggs/sperm that would otherwise be discarded or unused.

​In the UK alone the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority reports that almost half the embryos created for use in IVF are destroyed in any given year (approximately 170,000 a year). This is a typical pattern. As Catholics we believe in life from conception to natural death; destroying an embryo like this is as bad as abortion. It isn't that these embryos just magically appeared in the world and that infertile couples kindly save the life of the baby by volunteering to have IVF; their creation - and their subsequent destruction - happen because of the IVF industry. A HFEA spokesperson explained it with, "IVF involves the creation of more embryos than are transferred to the patient so that the best ones can be chosen to start pregnancy." Hundreds of thousands of lives terminated, 'the best ones' allowed to proceed. How is this compatible with Catholic ethics?

Infertility is an incredibly hard cross to bear, but no one has a 'right' to a child. No one is entitled to give birth. I sympathise with infertile couples, but in conscience we can't suggest that anyone buy into the IVF industry, which is an example of consumer culture at its worst - an expensive process that results in loss of life.on a massive scale There are many kids out there already who need a loving long-term foster placement or an adoptive home. No, adoption isn't for everyone either, but this is a choice that respects the dignity of human beings.

[Lilllabettt]

​And infertile couples have the right to seek help with fertilization, using embryos/eggs/sperm that would otherwise be discarded or unused.

 

 

​

??? Are you nuts? Embryos/eggs/sperm are discarded BECAUSE of ivf.

You know those people who won't adopt a shelter pet? They don't want a pet that is older, or one that is "broken." They only want a cute little puppy.

Well, grown men and women treat human beings the same way. The woman wants the "experience" of being pregnant. Or the man only wants a child who looks like him. Most of the kids available for adoption are colored, older, or have some special need.  These grown-ups don't want them. They want the cute little baby. So instead of seeking to heal a hurt that has already happened (the parents have already been lost) they seek to cause a hurt, to deliberately create a child with the intention of depriving it of its natural parents. 

Have you ever seen a baby animal that is separated from its mother too early? The crying, desperation, agony on the part of the baby? Throughout its life that animal will exhibit behaviors that can be traced back to the traumatic experience of being taken from its mother before reaching maturity.   

Grown-ups do this to helpless little babies, every day. Because of their selfish "wants."  It's disgusting. It's monstrous. 

Edited May 30, 2015 by Lilllabettt

[Yaatee]

​

??? Are you nuts? Embryos/eggs/sperm are discarded BECAUSE of ivf.

You know those people who won't adopt a shelter pet? They don't want a pet that is older, or one that is "broken." They only want a cute little puppy.

Well, grown men and women treat human beings the same way. The woman wants the "experience" of being pregnant. Or the man only wants a child who looks like him. Most of the kids available for adoption are colored, older, or have some special need.  These grown-ups don't want them. They want the cute little baby. So instead of seeking to heal a hurt that has already happened (the parents have already been lost) they seek to cause a hurt, to deliberately create a child with the intention of depriving it of its natural parents. 

Have you ever seen a baby animal that is separated from its mother too early? The crying, desperation, agony on the part of the baby? Throughout its life that animal will exhibit behaviors that can be traced back to the traumatic experience of being taken from its mother before reaching maturity.   

Grown-ups do this to helpless little babies, every day. Because of their selfish "wants."  It's disgusting. It's monstrous. 

​I don't think that embryos can experience separation from their parents.

It is true that IVF  involves the "loss" of egg as and sperm, and the loss of embryos, tho' it doesn't have to involve the loss of embryos if only one is implanted at a time.  There is another factor little discussed, involving infertility: STD's, which frequently scar the fallopian tubes. No one talks about this.

I have personally known and greatly admired people who adopt older, and often damaged children, who also often prove beyond anyone's reach. It is natural to want one's own children.  The best solution is to avoid unwanted children.  For this there are two solutions, both proved very effective in northern Europe and Scandinavia: sex education and free and widespread contraception, the other thing that Catholics don't talk about (except maybe on phatmass).  These two areas, northern Europe and Scandinavia, have the lowest abortion rates (and the best statistics) in the world.  These two (partial) solutions are going to do more to prevent infertility secondary to STD's (and IVF) than mere condemnation. Of course, decreasing infertility will also decrease adoptions, which will decrease because of sex education and contraception.

Abstinence is fine, as far as it goes. Sometimes it doesn't go very far.  There was a chlamydia outbreak in a Texas school district which offered only "abstinence only" sex education.  Chlamydia produces pelvic inflammatory disease and, often, sterility.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/chlamydia-outbreak-hits-texas-high-school-sex-ed/story?id=30798143

There is worse on the horizon: tailor-made babies.  You want to see embryos thrown out?  Just wait.

 

[PhuturePriest]

​I don't think that embryos can experience separation from their parents.

It is true that IVF  involves the "loss" of egg as and sperm, and the loss of embryos, tho' it doesn't have to involve the loss of embryos if only one is implanted at a time.  There is another factor little discussed, involving infertility: STD's, which frequently scar the fallopian tubes. No one talks about this.

I have personally known and greatly admired people who adopt older, and often damaged children, who also often prove beyond anyone's reach. It is natural to want one's own children.  The best solution is to avoid unwanted children.  For this there are two solutions, both proved very effective in northern Europe and Scandinavia: sex education and free and widespread contraception, the other thing that Catholics don't talk about (except maybe on phatmass).  These two areas, northern Europe and Scandinavia, have the lowest abortion rates (and the best statistics) in the world.  These two (partial) solutions are going to do more to prevent infertility secondary to STD's (and IVF) than mere condemnation. Of course, decreasing infertility will also decrease adoptions, which will decrease because of sex education and contraception.

​You forgot to mention the part where Northern Europe contracepts so much that it is under its replacement rate and, if it keeps going on this trajectory, will contracept itself out of existence. 

[beatitude]

​I don't think that embryos can experience separation from their parents.

It is true that IVF  involves the "loss" of egg as and sperm, and the loss of embryos, tho' it doesn't have to involve the loss of embryos if only one is implanted at a time.  There is another factor little discussed, involving infertility: STD's, which frequently scar the fallopian tubes. No one talks about this.

​I think Lillabett was talking about surrogacy when she mentioned separation. Surrogate motherhood is a growing phenomenon linked to the IVF industry.

IVF automatically involves the loss of embryos because they always create more than is strictly needed (the HFEA spokesperson I quoted in my last post explained the rationale for this) and it's illegal to store them beyond a certain date. There is no way to have IVF without destruction of embryos.

It is natural to want your own children. That doesn't mean you can use any means possible to create them. It's also not natural to assume that you should be able to have everything you want in life.

[Guest]

What?

[PhuturePriest]

This thread should be reported for crimes against the Phatmass population, 99% of which doesn't care whatsoever about this thread and is deeply bothered by the fact that it keeps getting updated.

Seriously, haven't we gotten bored of this topic by now?

[hotpink]

What?

 

​do you have a factual reference for that?  Cause if so thats abhorent.