Dogma!

[the protector]

Seeing this movie as a Catholic a few years back and now, when I hold no religious beliefs, my feelings haven't changed. Mildy funny, if not a bit erratic. I think that casting George Carlin as a bishop was a bit of a cheap shot.

My favorite part:
Loki: You're a pure soul... but you didn't say "God bless you" when I sneezed.
[raises his gun to Mrs. Reynold's head]

[quote]Surely, you wouldn't disagree that blasphemy is just as serious, if not more serious, than murder?[/quote]
That's messed up.

Edited July 12, 2004 by the protector

[Aloysius]

I don't believe we should have an open mind. where did all that garbage come from? why should we question the Divinely revealed faith? to test it? "Thou shall not test the Lord thy God"

no no no, i do not have an open mind at all. my mind is shut and sealed by the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is no need for me to question.

[Someguynamedmatt]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 12 2004, 12:08 PM'] I don't believe we should have an open mind.  where did all that garbage come from?  why should we question the Divinely revealed faith?  to test it? "Thou shall not test the Lord thy God"

no no no, i do not have an open mind at all. my mind is shut and sealed by the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is no need for me to question. [/quote]
I find it hard to believe that the Lord gave us the gift of intelligence and discernment and did not intend for us to use it to know Him better. I don't think people really get what i mean when i say "open mind." i don't mean you should try to disprove the Church, just that, as track 2004 said,
[quote]A mature faith is one that has been questioned and challenged and still comes out as true. [/quote]

That is why I am a Catholic despite having had doubts in the past. No matter what questions I could raise about faith I found that the fullness of the truth could only be found in the true Church. Does that make me a bad Catholic? Well some people would say so, but I would argue that if my faith was strengthened, then the end justifies the means. I don't think testing your faith and testing the Lord are the same thing.

Edited July 12, 2004 by Someguynamedmatt

[Aloysius]

alright alright that sounds fine

but that doesn't mean you have to have an "open mind" about all ideas and that garbage. of course people's faith has been tried, that'll happen and it'll help to strengthen them. however, that does not justify people demanding that everyone have an open mind and question their beliefs.

[Enda]

[quote name='OwNeD_byGoD' date='Jun 16 2004, 05:24 AM']If i were to make a movie about the holocaust and i was making it against jews, i could easily put a warning in the beginning of the movie, saying: lighten up jews, dont be offended we arent really trying to offend you we're just making a satire about what you guys went through and your beliefs, but all is well dont take it too seriously.[/quote]
Uh, no. Mass excutions are NEVER EVER EVER funny and to portray them as such (espically when there are people ALIVE who saw thier FAMILY MEMBERS SLAUTERED) is incredibly offensive and goes against everything that has ever been written about compassion. :angry:

Juding from the fact that you said "what you guys went through for your beilfs" idicates to me you probably think Semtiism is only a religion. It is also a race, but in either case I wouldn't make fun of what Mislovech(sp) did to the Muslims. :angry:

Would you like me to arrgane your family's mass excution and then make a comedy about it?

[Theoketos]

Matt Peace and Blessings to You and every other Phat Peep reading this.

[quote]No, it wasn't. Socialism was Karl Marx's idea. Marx himself referred to Communism as a perversion of his ideas. Marx deep in his heart believed that society is comprised of two classes, one that owns means of production and one that performs the labor. He was a philosopher and a sociologist, not a politician.[/quote]

The Point still stands that his ideas were bad, they are offensive to the dignity of the Human person.

[quote]It simply means that believing without questioning is not enough. You have to ask yourself why you believe that, and in some cases that might mean questioning whether your belief is the truth or not.[/quote]

There is a right way to do this (e.g. 'Why is it this way?' or why is not this way"') and a wrong way (e.g. 'It can be this way!' or 'How can it be this way?'). "Dogma" Encourages the weaker and less humble way. Instead questioning one's beliefs the movie poses that we should not have beliefs, for it supposes that either every one's beliefs are equal and/or that no belief is true.

That is mucho bad.

[quote]You are watching Dogma that way, with a closed mind and superficially. Holy Mother Church is far too strong to be able to fall to such a "trifle of a movie" as Kevin Smith calls it.[/quote]

I would say that when I first watched "Dogma" I was really open to the ideas in that movie. I think that most of them are trash now. Sarcasm is a weak sense of humor and I do not wish to see any one, including you MATT, be lead away from the Church.

I honestly see some anti Catholic tendencies in the philosophy of Kevin Smith, and I see you Matt espouse them, though unknowingly.

Please take a hard look at the fact that the Bishops have asked you not see this movie and not to promote it.

Out of simple obedience and humility must we sometimes act.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Someguynamedmatt' date='Jul 9 2004, 04:55 PM'] No, it wasn't. Socialism was Karl Marx's idea. Marx himself referred to Communism as a perversion of his ideas. Marx deep in his heart believed that society is comprised of two classes, one that owns means of production and one that performs the labor. He was a philosopher and a sociologist, not a politician. [/quote]
Hi Matt,

Either way, that is more or less irrelevant. The fact still remains that Lenin and Stalin, as examples, were extremely influenced by his philosophies -- his "ideas," if you will. If anything, this would add to my point that "ideas" influence people more than the originator perhaps intended, and that ideas can be misconstrued; they also can be taken more seriously than intended as well.

Marx also promoted the abolition of religion. He thought of the "idea," whereas Stalin acted on it. To say that Marx's "idea" on the abolishment of religion was harmless, or to say that it did not influence Stalin, is a bit naive, no?

[quote]It simply means that believing without questioning is not enough. You have to ask yourself why you believe that, and in some cases that might mean questioning whether your belief is the truth or not.
[/quote]

No offense, Matt, but what does this have to do with the movie? From what it seems, the point the movie tried to make isn't that people should come into a fuller understanding of their religion. The point it seemed intent on making is that strongly held beliefs, i.e., beliefs that aren't open to change, are wrong. Ideas, it's argued, are better in that they can be changed. If you insist that the movie thinks it's okay to have strongly held (educated) beliefs that are not open to change, you'll need to offer proof because it seems to me that this movie throws the baby out with the bathwater and takes up the nihilistic notion that it's "arrogant" and "dangerous" to hold that something is objectively true.

Btw, Steven Greydanus, in [url="http://www.decentfilms.com/reviews/dogma.html"]his review[/url] of [i]Dogma[/i], mentions that Kevin Smith has said himself that he's not too comfortable with organized religion.

[quote]You are obviously an educated and wise Catholic. Awesome. You've studied your faith and you have a deeper belief than a lot of people. That is exactly the kind of faith I am saying we all should have.[/quote]

I totally agree that people should be knowledgeable about their religion. My point was that this movie doesn't exactly help the situation with poorly educated Catholics (or with non-Catholics who know very little about Catholicism). The goal with poorly educated Catholics, and with non-Catholics, is to make them more knowledgeable about Catholicism. How do you think this movie helps that goal? Before you answer that, I refer you to one of my past posts on this thread in which I linked to two reviews by non-Catholic Christians in which this movie was taken as a factual portrayal of Catholicism. I also mentioned that Roger Ebert took this movie as a factual (although comical) portrayal of Catholicism as well.

[quote]As to making fun of Mary's perpetual virginity, the movie does not do that. Only if you take the movie LITERALLY will it do that. When someone asks you if you are done with your work, and you reply "yeah, right" in a sarcastic tone, people assume that you actually meant "no, i'm nowhere near done with my work."[/quote]

You tell me how saying (by a so-called "13th Apostle," no less) that the Virgin Birth is a "leap of faith," and that believing in Joseph and Mary's chaste marriage is "plain gullibility," is just a piece of satire meaning to prove just the opposite, especially when the main plot revolves around one of Mary and Joseph's "descendants." I'm all ears.

[quote]You are watching Dogma that way, with a closed mind and superficially. Holy Mother Church is far too strong to be able to fall to such a "trifle of a movie" as Kevin Smith calls it.[/quote]

I wouldn't be so stupid to say that this movie could overcome the Church. I don't believe that in the least bit. But, what I've been saying is that this movie isn't good in and of itself because it mocks what is sacred. I also think that the fact that some people take this movie to be a factual portrayal of Catholicism adds insult to injury -- and could also keep people from learning about [b]real, orthodox[/b] Catholicism.

God bless,

Jennifer

P.S. No offense was meant by this post.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='the protector' date='Jul 12 2004, 04:27 AM'] That's messed up. [/quote]
It isn't when one takes God and one's religion seriously.

God bless,

Jen