Dogma!

[Margarite]

What does ambivalence (is that how it's spelled? )

When I went to see this movie I knew what to expect, since I've watched Kevin's movies before, but i just don't know what made my husband go with me, I was nervous just anticipating his reaction. After the first few scenes, I could feel the tension and really thought my hubby was going to walk out in a fury, but suddenly he started cracking up and didn't stop laughing all the way through.

We both were so conflicted afterwards, the movie was hilarous and we really didn't know if we should feel guilty or not. We took it in the end as a ficticious parody of very steriotypical view on the faith.

That's my Two cents.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Oik' date='Jun 24 2004, 08:09 PM'] I aslo agree that certain views shouldn't be taken in light of certain situations, however, you can and should have opinoins and stances on things. It is incorrect to say that you must see this movie or do this thing to be able to speak. What should I then do, Sin before I go out and condemn sin? No. Our Beautiful Faith gives us the means and standards to discern (and yes in judge actions, not peoples soul salvation) what is sinful and wrong.
[/quote]
You're comparing apples and oranges. Being dramatic I think.

As Catholics, we know what sin is. God has clearly set His rules, so if we go out and sin, we know what we're doing. So we don't need to commit a sin to condemn it, because God has already done so.

I don't recall God condemning any movie (except pornography of course) based on the fact that it may be offensive to [b]some[/b]. Since when is it a sin to find a movie funny even if it's a bit offensive?

And I'm sorry, but if anyone questions their faith based on a comedy like this, then their faith was not terribly strong to start with. It will take alot more than a movie to shake my faith.

[i]Carrie goes to pop Dogma into the DVD[/i]

[Azriel]

I :hearts: Carrie.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Azriel' date='Jun 28 2004, 04:18 PM'] I :hearts: Carrie. [/quote]
The feeling is mutual! :wub:

[Oik]

[quote]I don't recall God condemning any movie (except pornography of course) based on the fact that it may be offensive to some. Since when is it a sin to find a movie funny even if it's a bit offensive?[/quote]

God is universal. Kevin smith films will pass.

I tell you what, I went to go and see a play about catholicism, it was hiliarious. It's called [url="http://www.scottsdaleperformingarts.org/event.php?id=298"]Late Nite Catechism II[/url]. If you get a chance go and see it (or LNC). This is when comedy and catholicism meet. The actor makes an important point in the play, she says "Jesus was a Happy(joyous) guy, but he wasn't a funny guy."

[quote]And I'm sorry, but if anyone questions their faith based on a comedy like this, then their faith was not terribly strong to start with. It will take alot more than a movie to shake my faith.[/quote]

Survival of the fittest in not compatible with God's Love. Sure, it may not cause you to stray but it has caused others.

The two things I hear from anti-catholics, atheists, and fallen a way catholics is:
1) Dogma reveals the Truth about the inconsisantcies (sp) of the Church.
2) The Da Vinci Code proves that Catholicism is a sham

And yes, I am comparing the two, because they are in the same genre, blasphemous religious fiction.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Oik' date='Jun 29 2004, 03:42 AM'] The actor makes an important point in the play, she says "Jesus was a Happy(joyous) guy, but he wasn't a funny guy."




[/quote]
I've never heard of this play, but if I get a chance, I'll check it out.

How does the actor know he wasn't funny or didn't have a sense of humor? She didn't know him while he was alive, so her point isn't necessarily valid. Oik don't believe everything you hear.

[quote]The two things I hear from anti-catholics, atheists, and fallen a way catholics is:
1) Dogma reveals the Truth about the inconsisantcies (sp) of the Church.
2) The Da Vinci Code proves that Catholicism is a sham[/quote]

Wel, anti-catholics and atheists will use [b]anything[/b] to try and prove their point. I wouldn't take what they say to heart. And a fallen away Catholic is one that never understood the fullness of Truth to begin with. I think it was Ironmonk who once said something to that effect. If you truly understand, truly believe, and truly have faith...you won't fall away. So if they fell, it would be for reasons more complex than simply watching this film. But, oh, how easy it is to blame it on the film rather than go deeper into the real reasons.

I can't comment on the Da Vinci Code because I haven't read it. If you've seen any of my other posts, I think it's silly to comment on something that I haven't read or seen because I don't have enough knowledge about it. So we'll leave you to debate that with someone who knows more about it than me.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Someguynamedmatt' date='Jun 25 2004, 02:19 PM'] Is it really that offensive and blasphemous to depict God as a female? Does the Father not have to power to assume whatever form He wishes? [/quote]
Hi Matt,

Sure, God has the power to be depicted in any way He pleases; however, how would you know if God is pleased to be depicted as a female? In the Bible, God is only described as He. Why do you think that is? I think there is a reason for that. With the Incarnation, Jesus became man. Jesus is said to be married to the Church. The Church is described as Jesus' Bride. Having God depicted as a female makes it seem like two women are married. Plus, having God depicted as a woman doesn't seem very Incarnational.

[quote]More importantly, I think a lot of people miss a very important message in this movie. In the movie, Chris Rock's character says that it's better to have ideas than beliefs, because ideas can be changed while people will go to war over beliefs.[/quote]

What's the difference between ideas and beliefs? Is an idea some sort of subjective, my-beliefs-are-not-more-right-than-yours-even-though-they-are-in-disagreement kind of thing, whereas beliefs are arrogant and dangerous? I don't buy into that notion at all. Communism was Karl Marx's idea, and that didn't turn out too well.

[quote]While as a Catholic I feel that my beliefs are true, however it is important, even as a Catholic, to have an open mind about your beliefs. [/quote]

Can you explain what you mean by saying that it's important that Catholics "have an open mind about [their] beliefs," please?

[quote]I am not saying that you should believe the movie when it says that Jesus had human brothers and sisters, but just because your parents told you that Mary was a virgin doesn't mean you should automatically believe it. [/quote]

I don't believe that because my parents told me to believe it. I believe it because the evidence points in that direction. I'm Catholic because I believe the evidence shows that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church started by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D. There's nothing in the Bible that says that Jesus had other biological brothers and sisters, even though non-Catholics (who sort of ignore the Greek in the passages where Jesus' "brothers" are mentioned) fail to recognize this. The Church Fathers also said that it was heretical to say that Mary had other biological children.

[quote]Most educated Catholics have at least opened their mind to the reality that there is no physical proof positive of Mary's purity, but have prayed and read scripture and theological works to ascertain the truth for themselves.[/quote]

Careful there, Matt. Reading the Bible and making up one's own mind is very subjective. When things are subjective, there's tons of room for error. Not only that, but look at what happens when people "read the Bible for themselves." David Koresh read the Bible for himself. American slave owners read the Bible for themselves. Dr. Wesley A. Swift, an extreme racist who's a pastor in the [url="http://www.kingidentity.com/cjc.html"]Church of Jesus Christ Christian[/url] reads the Bible for himself. Because of examples like this, it's extremely important that the Catholic Church -- the one, true Church -- interprets the Bible.

There can be no physical evidence for Mary's virginity, and that's because Mary is not walking the earth today. But, that's not to say that there isn't tons of evidence pointing to the fact that Mary remained a virgin.

[quote]This movie cannot be called blasphemous just because it challenges or pokes fun of Catholic beliefs. Beliefs need to be challenged in everyone's mind, both right and wrong beliefs. It takes no effort to believe something when you refuse to challenge it in your own mind. Faith is still believing after your beliefs have been challenged.[/quote]

There's a difference between challenging and mocking, and I believe that this movie mocks. A Catholic making fun of Mary's perpetual virginity would in fact be committing blasphemy. There's no way around that.

God bless,

Jennifer

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Someguynamedmatt' date='Jun 25 2004, 04:13 PM'] Secondly, as to the question of blasphemy, the plot of Dogma would definitely qualify as "profane scoffing at the Holy Scripture, or exposing it to contempt or ridicule" on the surface. However, we must remember that Dogma is a piece of satire, and the message on the surface is not the true message behind the work. [/quote]
Hi Matt (again),

I don't buy that. The whole purpose of satire is to criticize, albeit in a humorous way. I have nothing against satire, but I'm against criticisms of my Church, even if they are comical.

God bless,

Jen

[track2004]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jun 29 2004, 03:14 PM'] Can you explain what you mean by saying that it's important that Catholics "have an open mind about [their] beliefs," please?
[/quote]
I always took that line about "having ideas" to mean that the things I think can be challenged. Ideas are questionable while beliefs are not. A mature faith is one that has been questioned and challenged and still comes out as true. So when I call me faith into question I take a good hard look at it and The Church makes sense. Saying that what The Church says is only an idea isn't a bad thing because it doesn't mean that I'm not going to follow, it just means that I am able to question and to change it into beliefs as I grow.

[Theoketos]

The entire distinction between Ideas and Beliefs as a means for toleration is actually the worst part of the movie.

Why?

Becuase it leads to relativism and if you follow it then you have been lead away from the Church.

Let the truth be known that Faith and Truth are inseperable.

[Oik]

Beena and Theo, thank you for you comments. You illustrate very clearly the points about Dogma that I know to be important. I wholeheartedly agree.

[Theoketos]

I also have to add that two people may have different beliefs but still get along.

This is why dialogue is important, for in coming to understand the differances in beliefs we may come to under stand that the other side is human.

Also Faith should follow reason, faith seeks understanding, and understanding seeks faith.

Niether should contradict, if they do either reason is flawed or faith is misplaced.

[shelly_freak]

maybe its just me but I like this movie

you wont get offended if u remember it's just a movie and it's not meant to be taken sereiosly

[Someguynamedmatt]

[quote] Communism was Karl Marx's idea, and that didn't turn out too well. 
[/quote]
No, it wasn't. Socialism was Karl Marx's idea. Marx himself referred to Communism as a perversion of his ideas. Marx deep in his heart believed that society is comprised of two classes, one that owns means of production and one that performs the labor. He was a philosopher and a sociologist, not a politician.

[quote]Can you explain what you mean by saying that it's important that Catholics "have an open mind about [their] beliefs," please?[/quote]

It simply means that believing without questioning is not enough. You have to ask yourself why you believe that, and in some cases that might mean questioning whether your belief is the truth or not.

[quote]I don't believe that because my parents told me to believe it.  I believe it because the evidence points in that direction.  I'm Catholic because I believe the evidence shows that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church started by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D. There's nothing in the Bible that says that Jesus had other biological brothers and sisters, even though non-Catholics (who sort of ignore the Greek in the passages where Jesus' "brothers" are mentioned) fail to recognize this.  The Church Fathers also said that it was heretical to say that Mary had other biological children.[/quote]

You are obviously an educated and wise Catholic. Awesome. You've studied your faith and you have a deeper belief than a lot of people. That is exactly the kind of faith I am saying we all should have.

[quote]Careful there, Matt.  Reading the Bible and making up one's own mind is very subjective.  When things are subjective, there's tons of room for error.  Not only that, but look at what happens when people "read the Bible for themselves."  David Koresh read the Bible for himself.  American slave owners read the Bible for themselves.  Dr. Wesley A. Swift, an extreme racist who's a pastor in the [url="http://www.kingidentity.com/cjc.html"]Church of Jesus Christ Christian[/url] reads the Bible for himself.  Because of examples like this, it's extremely important that the Catholic Church -- the one, true Church -- interprets the Bible.[/quote]

That is exactly why I included "theological works," such as CCC, writings of Saints (Francis of Assissi, Thomas Aquinas, etc.) as well as contemporary religious works such as C.S. Lewis, Max Lucado, whomever you choose.

[quote]There can be no physical evidence for Mary's virginity, and that's because Mary is not walking the earth today.  But, that's not to say that there isn't tons of evidence pointing to the fact that Mary remained a virgin.[/quote]

You said it better than I can say it, there is no physical evidence because Mary is not walking the earth today. So you should read and find the evidence that points to that fact.

As to making fun of Mary's perpetual virginity, the movie does not do that. Only if you take the movie LITERALLY will it do that. When someone asks you if you are done with your work, and you reply "yeah, right" in a sarcastic tone, people assume that you actually meant "no, i'm nowhere near done with my work." You are watching Dogma that way, with a closed mind and superficially. Holy Mother Church is far too strong to be able to fall to such a "trifle of a movie" as Kevin Smith calls it.

[RemnantRules]

I thought this movie was so awesome and funny but now i find it disgusting and vulgor! sorry just my opinion