Dogma!

[track2004]

Ok so I'm going to throw some movie quotes out there:

Metatron: You are Bethany Sloane. Nobody can take that away from you, not even God.

Bartleby: The humans have besmirched everything bestowed on them. They were given Paradise, they threw it away. They were given this planet, they destroyed it. They were favored best among all His endeavors, and some of them don't even believe He exists. And in spite of it all, He's shown them infinite _______ patience at every turn.

[On Christ]
Rufus: The Man loved being human. Probably why He was so good at it.

[On Christ]
Rufus: He likes to listen to people talk. Says it sounds like music to Him. Christ loved to sit around the fire and listen to me and the other guys. Whenever we were going on about unimportant ____, He always had a smile on His face.

Loki: Do you know what makes a human being decent? Fear. And therein lies the problem. None of you has anything left to fear anymore. You rest comfortably in seats of inscrutable power, hiding behind your false idol, far from judgment, lives shrouded in secrecy even from one another. But not from God.

Serendipity: I have issues with anyone who treats faith as a burden instead of a blessing. You people don't celebrate your faith; you mourn it.

Rufus: I'm telling you, man, this ceremony is a big mistake.
Cardinal Glick: The Catholic Church does not make mistakes.
Rufus: Please. What about the Church's silent consent to the slave trade?
Bethany: And its platform of noninvolvement during the Holocaust?
Cardinal Glick: All right, mistakes were made.

Rufus: [To Bethany] The man was right about you. And I am going to go home and tell him so. [To Jay And Silent Bob] And if you clean up your language, I JUST might put in a good word for you too.
Silent Bob: Thanks.

I got all of those from [url="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120655/quotes"]Internet Movie Database - Dogma Quotes[/url].

So what do you think about what was said? Agree or disagree, just make an intelligent comment.

[crusader1234]

I think they accurately represent Kevin Smith's worldview at that point in time.

[Paladin D]

I wouldn't be able to tolerate such a movie, I'm not weak in my faith however. I just do not feel comfortable seeing a movie that gravely pokes fun at something so sensitive to me.

[nikkan_hanil]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jun 23 2004, 09:14 AM'] I wouldn't be able to tolerate such a movie, I'm not weak in my faith however. I just do not feel comfortable seeing a movie that gravely pokes fun at something so sensitive to me. [/quote]
Yeah, I kinda agree. YOu just can't make a joke out of something that you put your highest regards on.

[crusader1234]

Some people can, others cant. I think its important to remember that he wasnt making fun of anything, he was making a movie about his beliefs and added humour.

Peace,

Rich

[Oik]

Dogma is blaphemous, but not quite so dangerous as nazis. I have seen the movie twice, all the way through. I was deeply offended and wounded both times. It was irreverant, incorrect, and vulgar. The lies perpetuated by the movie overshadowed any remotely decent (redeeming is a better word) qualities about the movie, in fact, i don't recall any of those parts that even seemed sincere anyway. I think, however, what wounds me the the most it that Kevin Smith wastes his talent. The man is a genius. He is funny. He is a great storyteller, but all his stories are garbage. I have seen MallRats, Chasing Amy, and Dogma, all several times. So, I do know.

I aslo agree that certain views shouldn't be taken in light of certain situations, however, you can and should have opinoins and stances on things. It is incorrect to say that you must see this movie or do this thing to be able to speak. What should I then do, Sin before I go out and condemn sin? No. Our Beautiful Faith gives us the means and standards to discern (and yes in judge actions, not peoples soul salvation) what is sinful and wrong.

Dogma was a waste, so much could have been accomplished. You can enjoy that humor, it is your choice. You don't have to answer to me, so make sure you know what He says about matters of conscience.

DTB

[Mary's Knight, La]

i posted elsewhere on this i think.

1 dogma is a comedy according to kevin smith - no complaints here i think the movie is hilarious for what it is...

2 dogma cannot be considered offensive - big disagreement here the movie offended me a lot however, i can get past that sometimes to see the claimed intent behind it. the arguement that smith is catholic therefore it's not offensive is balogna after all John kerry's catholic and his press coverage offends me i can't imagine what a movie would do...

3 dogma explores ironies about the faith - disagree here too what it does is present an agenda that goes down pretty easy because of the comedy coating the comedy is excellent just be prepared to choke and vomit on what's inside afterwards

dogma is a movie... and it contains some great comedy if you can stomach 1 the comedy and 2 the agenda behind it. yes my ideas have prob changed since my last post

[crusader1234]

I agree.

It's offensive but hilarious.

[Theoketos]

I used to be a huge Kevin Smith Fan, and I still think that he is really funny, but there is an indirect proportion between the amount of time I spend watching his stuff and the closer I get to God.

I think that the movie Dogma was a turning point in a full convertion, in that it made my sides split, but then I though more and more about it, and what I was laughing. It turns out that I was laughing at Christ and his bride the Church. I also thought how it made some of my friends, who are Kevin Smith uber fans question the Church and then me, and I had to defend my faith becuase of the movie. Good people take the Smith Idealogy seriously, and while it is a comedy it still has a strong anti-heirarchal message.

Anything is more then offensive if it leads any one away from the faith, is it not? The means does not justify the end.

Let us remember that one of the spiritual works of mercy to instruct the ignorant, not weed them out. Darwinism does not work in Religion.

[Dave]

I remember the brouhaha that the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights started before Dogma's release. Their description of the movie sickened me, and I knew right away that wasn't a movie I'd want to spend money on. How can anyone find humor in blasphemy? :irate:

[Someguynamedmatt]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jun 15 2004, 03:02 AM'] My example of the movie's portrayal of the Virgin Mary is just one example.  The movie also pokes fun at indulgences (in addition to completely misconstruing the practice), expresses a somewhat pluralistic view of religion, is very sexual in nature, and presents God as a female.[/quote]
Is it really that offensive and blasphemous to depict God as a female? Does the Father not have to power to assume whatever form He wishes?

More importantly, I think a lot of people miss a very important message in this movie. In the movie, Chris Rock's character says that it's better to have ideas than beliefs, because ideas can be changed while people will go to war over beliefs. While as a Catholic I feel that my beliefs are true, however it is important, even as a Catholic, to have an open mind about your beliefs. It is important to be able to question your own beliefs in order to further your own spiritual growth. I am not saying that you should believe the movie when it says that Jesus had human brothers and sisters, but just because your parents told you that Mary was a virgin doesn't mean you should automatically believe it. Most educated Catholics have at least opened their mind to the reality that there is no physical proof positive of Mary's purity, but have prayed and read scripture and theological works to ascertain the truth for themselves.

This movie cannot be called blasphemous just because it challenges or pokes fun of Catholic beliefs. Beliefs need to be challenged in everyone's mind, both right and wrong beliefs. It takes no effort to believe something when you refuse to challenge it in your own mind. Faith is still believing after your beliefs have been challenged.

-Matt Tettleton

[Azriel]

[quote name='Someguynamedmatt' date='Jun 25 2004, 12:19 PM'] Is it really that offensive and blasphemous to depict God as a female? Does the Father not have to power to assume whatever form He wishes?

More importantly, I think a lot of people miss a very important message in this movie. In the movie, Chris Rock's character says that it's better to have ideas than beliefs, because ideas can be changed while people will go to war over beliefs. While as a Catholic I feel that my beliefs are true, however it is important, even as a Catholic, to have an open mind about your beliefs. It is important to be able to question your own beliefs in order to further your own spiritual growth. I am not saying that you should believe the movie when it says that Jesus had human brothers and sisters, but just because your parents told you that Mary was a virgin doesn't mean you should automatically believe it. Most educated Catholics have at least opened their mind to the reality that there is no physical proof positive of Mary's purity, but have prayed and read scripture and theological works to ascertain the truth for themselves.

This movie cannot be called blasphemous just because it challenges or pokes fun of Catholic beliefs. Beliefs need to be challenged in everyone's mind, both right and wrong beliefs. It takes no effort to believe something when you refuse to challenge it in your own mind. Faith is still believing after your beliefs have been challenged.

-Matt Tettleton [/quote]
Excellent post.

(for the record, I own the movie)

[Oik]

I disagee someguy...

First of all is it offensive, at least theologically and indirectly to dipect God as a female. Why? God has no body.

Please read section (ii) under Infinity of God [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm"]here[/url].

Also read about what blasphemy is [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm"]here[/url]

From the same source:
"Again, blasphemy may be (1) either direct, as when the one blaspheming formally intends to dishonour the Divinity, or (2) indirect, as when without such intention blasphemous words are used with advertence to their import."

"Blasphemy cognizable by common law is defined by Blackstone to be "denying the being or providence of God, contumelious reproaches of our Saviour Jesus Christ, profane scoffing at the Holy Scripture, or exposing it to contempt or ridicule".

So, again, it is up to you to decide for yourself, but I object in this case.
1) Dogma is not only blasphemous. It uses gross misrepresentations and age old heresies in a comical manner, written by a Catholic.
2) Dogma's is purposely theologically unsound. This again is offensive and gross.

"The purpose of an open mind, like that of an open mouth, is to close it on something solid.For the mind, that "something solid" is truth." G.K. Chesterton

[Someguynamedmatt]

Firstly, I don't think Kevin Smith is at all claiming that God has a body and it is a female one. His portrayal of God as a woman is in opposition to the Biblical and literary referral to God as "He" or "Him." If the movie were to portray God as a man, it would be universally accepted, because society has yet to devise a method of visually portraying God, except in the human form. We were, after all, created in his likeness. However, using a woman to portray God brings this issue to attention, whereas if a man were used, it would be excused as the neccessity of filmmaking. For example, Morgan Freeman played the role of God in Bruce Almight, and the only objection was from people who were offended by seeing God portrayed by a black man. The same people were offended by Dogma's assertion that Jesus was black (which might be closer to the truth than most American Christians think... but that's another issue)

Secondly, as to the question of blasphemy, the plot of Dogma would definitely qualify as "profane scoffing at the Holy Scripture, or exposing it to contempt or ridicule" on the surface. However, we must remember that Dogma is a piece of satire, and the message on the surface is not the true message behind the work.

As to blasphemy being "indirect, when without such intention..." i have nothing to refute that this movie may be considered blasphemous under those conditions. However, under that assertion, this type of blasphemy would not be considered a mortal sin, because while blasphemy would definitely be considered grave matter, would not qualify having been done with knowledge and free will, so therefore would be a venial sin, and as such, would not be as bad or worse than murder, as was asserted early in this thread. Personally, when placed in the context of this movie, and especially since the movie has a disclaimer saying not to take it seriously, I don't believe that this movie's blasphemy would even qualify as grave matter, and would therefore not be considered even a venial sin, as it would be of light matter and unintentional.

I am sure that plenty of people will argue that it is of grave matter because it pokes fun at Mary, and even Jesus himself when Chris Rock's character says when asked if he knew Jesus, "Knew him? N**** owes me 12 bucks!" However, I remind you that in satire, the true meaning is not found on the surface.
-Matt Tettleton

[DancesforLove]

I've seen it a couple of times, it's allright.