Franciscan Friars of the Primitive Observance

[John Paul]

Does anyone know anything about them?

[He is Risen!]

They split off of the CFRs several years ago.  I used to be with the CFR sisters and we would see them from time to time at community events.  They live a very radical poverty, I believe they hitchhike to get around and live very rustically.  I don't know much about their prayer life but I think it is similar to the CFRs.

Edited May 18, 2015 by He is Risen!
word choice

[NadaTeTurbe]

FPO brothers called "questors" seek food door-to-door in the neighborhoods in which they live.

From Wikipedia. 

First, I don't know them, and don't judge them. I don't doubt they do many things for the poor. 

BUT. 

This... The religious community next door to me does that also. They take food from the food bank of my city. One day, they take so much there was nothing left... 

This monks can work to win their life. This monks SHOULD work a minimum to win their life. There is thousand of homeless in the street that need donation more than them. 

Relying on donation for a part of your life, as a religious, is good. Seeking food door-to-door sometimes... Yes, why not. It's good spiritualy. But all the time, you know what it is called ? It's called being a parasite of society. I don't believe this monks are parasite - because they are monk and priest, they are usefull by their prayer. But this shock me. 

The tone of the wikipedia page was bad, it sounded like "the FFPO are the best and true franciscan ever", but since the franciscans don't have internet (I guess), they are not responsible for, and maybe a friend of them did not understand well their spirituality and history. They don't say a lot about them on their website, and I like this. 

[NadaTeTurbe]

In find this on catholic answer forum. I supressed the part who were directed to the OP. The post is written by a Franciscan of Life

The Franciscans of the Primitive Observance are not an independent religious order. They are under obedience to the Capuchin Franciscans as are the Franciscans of the Renewal and the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word. Their hope is to recover the primitive Capuchin Franciscan obserances of the 1500s when the Capuchins reformed the Fanciscan Order. Some day they may become an independent branch of the Friars Minor, who knows.

They do have their own superior. As our rule says, each fraternity must be governed by a Guardian. They are a very small group. They are having some growing pains, like any young fraternity. Hopefully they will grow. Only the Holy Spirit knows for sure.

The Capuchin tradition is very strong on brotherhood, as is the entire Francisca family. But they place this Franciscan trait as number one to be lived. That is why parish ministry plays a very small role in the Capuchin tradition. 

As community ministry to the laity is not the number one priority to the Capuchin Franiciscans. The FPO are trying to recover the original Capuchin way of life, they are really a contemplative fraterntiy that spends most of its time with each other and in prayer.

They are not an EF community. None of the Franciscan communities that are canonically bound to the Franciscan family are EF. It was decided by the Ministers General of the Friars Minor, Third Order Regular and Secular Franciscans not to implement the Motu Proprio as a community. This was a right that is given to them by the Motu Proprio itself when it refers to regular priests and their superiors and by their Pontifical status.

There are ordained friars who do celebrate the EF with the permission of their brothers. You see, even though the Motu Proprio says that every priest has the freedom to celebrate the EF, it also refers to religious and their superiors. Priests in certain orders are bound by obedience to the Order instead of the Vatican when a directive is not binding on the entire Church. The Motu Proprio does not bind religious houses to implement the EF. That's an internal matter.

Among the Franciscans, the brotherhood is the voice of authority. They take these things to chapter and they vote on it. Then the local Guardian implements it. The Ministers decided to let each community give the permission for the EF on a case by case basis.

There are criterias that we use to determine when and who will celebrate it. The first question is always the same. Is this what the fraternity wants and will it make us better Franciscans? The second question is pretty similar. Do we have to do this for the laity or can someone else do it? The third question, is this necessary for the Church or for a specific group of people? Based on those answers the fraternity votes. Then the decision is handed to the Guardian. The Guardian does have the right to veto the vote. This rarely happens, but as the successor of Francis that's his right.

I may be wrong, but I do believe that the FPO do celebrate the mass in Latin, but its the Ordinary Form. They try not to get involved in parish ministry. They may go out to help a parish who needs help on a Sunday. But they do not take on parishes. Just like their older brothers, the Capuchin Franciscans who are leaving parishes and returning them to the bishops because they had become an order of priests as a result of too much involvement in parish ministry, the FPO is trying to avoid this.

They are not monks. They follow Francis' rule for hermits. They do spiritual direction, retreat work, preaching, missions and some teaching. As to their education in philosophy and theology they attend the local universities where they are stationed or the local diocesan seminary. 
 

According to the Franciscan constitutions, an individual who wants to join the Franciscan Order should have an undergraduate degree. They begin their formation as postulants, then novitiate. After novitiate they make temporary vows. During that period that they are in temporary vows they go to graduate school for theology. The order pays for it. The Rule of St. Francis is very clear that the brothers and sisters are not to take money from their families. I would imagine that they have some kind of financial arrangement with the Diocese of Falls River or the Archdiocese of Boston. It was Cardinal Sean, OFM Cap who invited them to Falls River when he was the bishop there and now he's the Archbishop of Boston.

Like the rest of the Franciscan family, only those friars approved by the brotherhood and the major superior may be ordained. But before one can ask for ordination one must make perpetual profession of solemn vows. If the request is denied, the individual is bound by the solemn vows and bound to remain in the community for life.

You have to think about the obedience. If you were denied permission to be ordained, would you be happy? If ordination were postponed, would you be happy? Would you be happy in a religioius family that has not adopted the Extraordinary Form, but only allows individuals in specific situations to celebrate it?

I remember Mother Angelica's nuns wanted a mass in the EF. They asked the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word, which Mother founded, to celebrate it for them. The local superior said no. He would not allow his friars to celebrate the EF. They had to invite priest from the Society of St. Peter to celebrate it.

The EF is certainly very beautiful. I have been to it many times and I'm a Franciscan. But the idea of the Franciscan family is that the EF is to be just that, Extraordinary, not the norm. To avoid having it become the exclusive form of the Order, contrary to the wishes of the Holy Father, they keep very tight controls as to when and where it is celebrated and who celebrates it. They are not opposed to it. They are trying very hard to protect the Ordinary Form and make sure that the Gregorian Form, when used, is truly an extraordinary situation. There is the danger that a friar may decided to celebrate only the EF. In that case, it's no longer extraordinary for friar and he's out of sync with his brothers.

Because there is such a strong emphasis on the brotherhood, there is going to be a very strong emphasis on making sure that any Franciscan of any of the three orders be in sync with the entire family. This preserves the unity of the Franciscan family. To maintain the strong bonds of brotherhood, obedience and submission to the brotherhood, and to by in sync with the entire Franciscan family, at the chagrin of the laity, Franciscans avoid allowing the laity's wishes influence their decisions and how they live or minister. They love the laity and want to serve. But their natural family is their community. Like any good Catholic, your family, its needs and wishes come first.

Again, discern with a spiritual director. If you can find a Franciscan, that would be better. He does not have to be a priest. Franciscans are all trained in Franciscan mystical and spiritual theology. It can be a priest, lay brother, Poor Clare nun, or a Secular Franciscan. Franciscans have a program to certify all those who are to serve as spiritual assistants. That's what we call spiritual directors.

 

[littlesister]

I seem to remember an older thread on the FPO's, maybe a year or so ago.  This is my last countdown to retreat, so not enough time to search for it now. 

God bless us one and all.  You'll be in my prayers.

[NadaTeTurbe]

Are you entering religious life, littlesister ? 

[John Paul]

She is a Catholic Religious if you look under her name.She must be a little sister of the Poor cause her name is little sister.

[NadaTeTurbe]

I did not saw that ! From wich community are you ? I know four communities who go by the name little sister, the little sisters of the poor, the little sisters of the lamb, the little sister of the Gospel, and the little sisters of Jesus. 

[beatitude]

I did not saw that ! From wich community are you ? I know four communities who go by the name little sister, the little sisters of the poor, the little sisters of the lamb, the little sister of the Gospel, and the little sisters of Jesus. 

​She's a Little Sister of the Poor.

[PhuturePriest]

FPO brothers called "questors" seek food door-to-door in the neighborhoods in which they live.

From Wikipedia. 

First, I don't know them, and don't judge them. I don't doubt they do many things for the poor. 

BUT. 

This... The religious community next door to me does that also. They take food from the food bank of my city. One day, they take so much there was nothing left... 

This monks can work to win their life. This monks SHOULD work a minimum to win their life. There is thousand of homeless in the street that need donation more than them. 

Relying on donation for a part of your life, as a religious, is good. Seeking food door-to-door sometimes... Yes, why not. It's good spiritualy. But all the time, you know what it is called ? It's called being a parasite of society. I don't believe this monks are parasite - because they are monk and priest, they are usefull by their prayer. But this shock me. 

The tone of the wikipedia page was bad, it sounded like "the FFPO are the best and true franciscan ever", but since the franciscans don't have internet (I guess), they are not responsible for, and maybe a friend of them did not understand well their spirituality and history. They don't say a lot about them on their website, and I like this. 

​I'm afraid you're being rather presumptuous and critical. Just because one community you know does something bad, that doesn't mean another like them does. I spent a week with a different community, the Franciscan Brothers Minor, who are very much like the Franciscans of the Primitive Observance. They have no means of income, and they beg for all the food they have. This does not make them a "parasite" on society. They are exactly like Saint Francis and the original Franciscans, and there is nothing wrong with that. Not only do they not take food out of a food shelter, but they regularly take most or even all of the food donated to them and give it to the local food shelter. One of the Brothers in the Franciscan Brothers Minor was a member of the Franciscans of the Primitive Observance, and he had nothing but good to say about them. 

You have no right to say that communities should work for money. These men don't just lie around all day getting hand-outs. They pray, they work in the community, and they help anyone who asks for it. They have a radical trust in God that few people possess. You do not know them, so you cannot judge them and tell them what they should or shouldn't do. It is an ancient tradition for religious communities, especially Franciscans, to live solely off divine providence. Saint Francis did it, and there's nothing wrong with these men doing it. It doesn't make them parasites, and you should repent for saying so.

Edited May 20, 2015 by PhuturePriest

[NadaTeTurbe]

You're right, I have been harsh and judgemental, and I am sorry for that. 

[Gabriela]

You're right, I have been harsh and judgemental, and I am sorry for that. 

​Nada, your quick willingness to admit when you have been wrong is truly praiseworthy.

 

[Dana Mugavero]

I am late to the conversation but when I see anything written about the FPO' s U step in. I know these guys well. One is my confessor. They live in a way that makes people uncomfortable. Largely, the Augustinians and Diocesan in the area.  My own pastor struggles with the issue of worldliness in their shadow but man. These guys are a rare collection of priests and brothers who live in absolute service to Jesus and Our Lady.

Some drop out. Some don't.  They have a sense of humor which they guard.  They don't have a tv in a back room. They don't sleep on cold floors or live without heat. They don't have secret Masonic lives. We have a hard time trusting anything 'fringe' right? We would have failed miserably with our fringe Savior. 

There are only a handful of FPO s and all in America tho a fraternity of sorts exists in Rome. Ask me anything. Thank you and Blessings!

[Dana Mugavero]

On 5/18/2015 at 4:42 PM, NadaTeTurbe said:

FPO brothers called "questors" seek food door-to-door in the neighborhoods in which they live.

From Wikipedia. 

First, I don't know them, and don't judge them. I don't doubt they do many things for the poor. 

BUT. 

This... The religious community next door to me does that also. They take food from the food bank of my city. One day, they take so much there was nothing left... 

This monks can work to win their life. This monks SHOULD work a minimum to win their life. There is thousand of homeless in the street that need donation more than them. 

Relying on donation for a part of your life, as a religious, is good. Seeking food door-to-door sometimes... Yes, why not. It's good spiritualy. But all the time, you know what it is called ? It's called being a parasite of society. I don't believe this monks are parasite - because they are monk and priest, they are usefull by their prayer. But this shock me. 

The tone of the wikipedia page was bad, it sounded like "the FFPO are the best and true franciscan ever", but since the franciscans don't have internet (I guess), they are not responsible for, and maybe a friend of them did not understand well their spirituality and history. They don't say a lot about them on their website, and I like this. 

I under stand your feelings. The FPO' s are friends and they do work constantly wherever and whenever asked. They beg food -never anything fancy- but they earn it with availability, ready confession, getting food and faith to the Lawrence MASS community and celebrating the Eucharist when askef even for small groups like mine.

They get hassled by the upper class neighborhoods with calls to the cops for being terrorists. 

That's hilarious to me for some reason.

On 5/20/2015 at 10:21 AM, PhuturePriest said:

I'm afraid you're being rather presumptuous and critical. Just because one community you know does something bad, that doesn't mean another like them does. I spent a week with a different community, the Franciscan Brothers Minor, who are very much like the Franciscans of the Primitive Observance. They have no means of income, and they beg for all the food they have. This does not make them a "parasite" on society. They are exactly like Saint Francis and the original Franciscans, and there is nothing wrong with that. Not only do they not take food out of a food shelter, but they regularly take most or even all of the food donated to them and give it to the local food shelter. One of the Brothers in the Franciscan Brothers Minor was a member of the Franciscans of the Primitive Observance, and he had nothing but good to say about them. 

You have no right to say that communities should work for money. These men don't just lie around all day getting hand-outs. They pray, they work in the community, and they help anyone who asks for it. They have a radical trust in God that few people possess. You do not know them, so you cannot judge them and tell them what they should or shouldn't do. It is an ancient tradition for religious communities, especially Franciscans, to live solely off divine providence. Saint Francis did it, and there's nothing wrong with these men doing it. It doesn't make them parasites, and you should repent for saying so.

So well said and yeah with a firm tone but sometimes it's called for. TheFranciscan Brothers Minor are in Rome, no?

On 5/18/2015 at 5:18 PM, NadaTeTurbe said:

In find this on catholic answer forum. I supressed the part who were directed to the OP. The post is written by a Franciscan of Life

The Franciscans of the Primitive Observance are not an independent religious order. They are under obedience to the Capuchin Franciscans as are the Franciscans of the Renewal and the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word. Their hope is to recover the primitive Capuchin Franciscan obserances of the 1500s when the Capuchins reformed the Fanciscan Order. Some day they may become an independent branch of the Friars Minor, who knows.

They do have their own superior. As our rule says, each fraternity must be governed by a Guardian. They are a very small group. They are having some growing pains, like any young fraternity. Hopefully they will grow. Only the Holy Spirit knows for sure.

The Capuchin tradition is very strong on brotherhood, as is the entire Francisca family. But they place this Franciscan trait as number one to be lived. That is why parish ministry plays a very small role in the Capuchin tradition. 

As community ministry to the laity is not the number one priority to the Capuchin Franiciscans. The FPO are trying to recover the original Capuchin way of life, they are really a contemplative fraterntiy that spends most of its time with each other and in prayer.

They are not an EF community. None of the Franciscan communities that are canonically bound to the Franciscan family are EF. It was decided by the Ministers General of the Friars Minor, Third Order Regular and Secular Franciscans not to implement the Motu Proprio as a community. This was a right that is given to them by the Motu Proprio itself when it refers to regular priests and their superiors and by their Pontifical status.

There are ordained friars who do celebrate the EF with the permission of their brothers. You see, even though the Motu Proprio says that every priest has the freedom to celebrate the EF, it also refers to religious and their superiors. Priests in certain orders are bound by obedience to the Order instead of the Vatican when a directive is not binding on the entire Church. The Motu Proprio does not bind religious houses to implement the EF. That's an internal matter.

Among the Franciscans, the brotherhood is the voice of authority. They take these things to chapter and they vote on it. Then the local Guardian implements it. The Ministers decided to let each community give the permission for the EF on a case by case basis.

There are criterias that we use to determine when and who will celebrate it. The first question is always the same. Is this what the fraternity wants and will it make us better Franciscans? The second question is pretty similar. Do we have to do this for the laity or can someone else do it? The third question, is this necessary for the Church or for a specific group of people? Based on those answers the fraternity votes. Then the decision is handed to the Guardian. The Guardian does have the right to veto the vote. This rarely happens, but as the successor of Francis that's his right.

I may be wrong, but I do believe that the FPO do celebrate the mass in Latin, but its the Ordinary Form. They try not to get involved in parish ministry. They may go out to help a parish who needs help on a Sunday. But they do not take on parishes. Just like their older brothers, the Capuchin Franciscans who are leaving parishes and returning them to the bishops because they had become an order of priests as a result of too much involvement in parish ministry, the FPO is trying to avoid this.

They are not monks. They follow Francis' rule for hermits. They do spiritual direction, retreat work, preaching, missions and some teaching. As to their education in philosophy and theology they attend the local universities where they are stationed or the local diocesan seminary. 
 

According to the Franciscan constitutions, an individual who wants to join the Franciscan Order should have an undergraduate degree. They begin their formation as postulants, then novitiate. After novitiate they make temporary vows. During that period that they are in temporary vows they go to graduate school for theology. The order pays for it. The Rule of St. Francis is very clear that the brothers and sisters are not to take money from their families. I would imagine that they have some kind of financial arrangement with the Diocese of Falls River or the Archdiocese of Boston. It was Cardinal Sean, OFM Cap who invited them to Falls River when he was the bishop there and now he's the Archbishop of Boston.

Like the rest of the Franciscan family, only those friars approved by the brotherhood and the major superior may be ordained. But before one can ask for ordination one must make perpetual profession of solemn vows. If the request is denied, the individual is bound by the solemn vows and bound to remain in the community for life.

You have to think about the obedience. If you were denied permission to be ordained, would you be happy? If ordination were postponed, would you be happy? Would you be happy in a religioius family that has not adopted the Extraordinary Form, but only allows individuals in specific situations to celebrate it?

I remember Mother Angelica's nuns wanted a mass in the EF. They asked the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word, which Mother founded, to celebrate it for them. The local superior said no. He would not allow his friars to celebrate the EF. They had to invite priest from the Society of St. Peter to celebrate it.

The EF is certainly very beautiful. I have been to it many times and I'm a Franciscan. But the idea of the Franciscan family is that the EF is to be just that, Extraordinary, not the norm. To avoid having it become the exclusive form of the Order, contrary to the wishes of the Holy Father, they keep very tight controls as to when and where it is celebrated and who celebrates it. They are not opposed to it. They are trying very hard to protect the Ordinary Form and make sure that the Gregorian Form, when used, is truly an extraordinary situation. There is the danger that a friar may decided to celebrate only the EF. In that case, it's no longer extraordinary for friar and he's out of sync with his brothers.

Because there is such a strong emphasis on the brotherhood, there is going to be a very strong emphasis on making sure that any Franciscan of any of the three orders be in sync with the entire family. This preserves the unity of the Franciscan family. To maintain the strong bonds of brotherhood, obedience and submission to the brotherhood, and to by in sync with the entire Franciscan family, at the chagrin of the laity, Franciscans avoid allowing the laity's wishes influence their decisions and how they live or minister. They love the laity and want to serve. But their natural family is their community. Like any good Catholic, your family, its needs and wishes come first.

Again, discern with a spiritual director. If you can find a Franciscan, that would be better. He does not have to be a priest. Franciscans are all trained in Franciscan mystical and spiritual theology. It can be a priest, lay brother, Poor Clare nun, or a Secular Franciscan. Franciscans have a program to certify all those who are to serve as spiritual assistants. That's what we call spiritual directors.

 

Cardinal O'Mallley can pull the plug on them at anytime. He is always here, keeping in touch with them. The Franciscan way of life is beautiful. Thank You Jesus....