Sad Day For Catholic Apologetics

[crusader1234]

I just thought that you (PSPX) might want to edit that post, Jen wasnt trying to be slanderous and it almost seems like she is incapable of it based on her other posts. Good point though, we all should check our information.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 13 2004, 08:14 PM'] Traditionalism hurts the Church... it leads to schism, then heresy. Those who attack VII are wrong to do so. They show little faith in the promises of Christ when they do. They, much like the pharisees are missing the point.

[/quote]
Hey now...there we go using Tradionalism as a dirty word again.

I, for one, am sick of this.


I'm traditional. I like the traditional mass. I'm fine with the Novus Ordo too, and I love JPII. I think some things in VII have been over interrupreted, but that doesn't make me schismatic.


I would appreciate it if we could remove the negative connotations from the words traditional and tradionalism. And please don't go flinging the word "Trad" around either in a non-positive way.

Seems only fair if the word heretic is off limits.

Call it political correctness gone amuck, but fair is fair.

[crusader1234]

I don't throw around Traditionalists like a dirty word... When we think of Traditionalists we think of those outspoken sedevacantists that like to bash JP2. I am all for traditionalists, so long as they dont go ignoring change. I think that anybody who goes against V2 is a heretic (I'm not using this is a slanderous term becuase this does comply with the definition). However, if you aknowledge V2, have no problem with it, but like to do things the old fashioned way, then good for you.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I think the issue really is semantical. We "Traditionalist" isnt being used to mean "orthodox" though I do agree, I think its terrible that traditional seems to have a negative connotation these days. Just remember, as long as we follow the Pope and the Magisterium, and do what they say we're allowed to do, and abstain from that which we are not, we're all good!

Also, Hananiah, Apotheoun, thanks a ton!


- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 14 2004, 02:28 AM'] I just thought that you (PSPX) might want to edit that post, Jen wasnt trying to be slanderous and it almost seems like she is incapable of it based on her other posts. Good point though, we all should check our information. [/quote]
I did not mean to imply that she was guilty of such things. Rather, my ire was directed toeard those who have made up these slanderous lies and that she (innocently, no doubt) is passing on. Just want people to be accurate.

So Jen, I apologize if my statement was taken the wrong way.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jun 14 2004, 03:29 AM'] Hey now...there we go using Tradionalism as a dirty word again.

I, for one, am sick of this.


I'm traditional. I like the traditional mass. I'm fine with the Novus Ordo too, and I love JPII. I think some things in VII have been over interrupreted, but that doesn't make me schismatic.


I would appreciate it if we could remove the negative connotations from the words traditional and tradionalism. And please don't go flinging the word "Trad" around either in a non-positive way.

Seems only fair if the word heretic is off limits.

Call it political correctness gone amuck, but fair is fair. [/quote]
If you notice the quote you quoted that it is written "those who attack VII".

If you don't attack VII, then you don't fit the definition.

If you like the Latin Mass, that does not make you a 'traditionalist'. I find that the majority of people who wish to be known as traditionalist, hate the New Mass, hate the Pope, etc...

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Justified Saint]

Was this move of Mario's really a surprise to anyone?

[Donna]

[b]FYI:[/b] A resource refuting sedevactantism:


[b]Sedevacantism:
A False Solution to a Real Problem
Society of Saint Pius X[/b]

This short study presents the position of the Society of Saint Pius X regarding the pope, and the objections others have made to this position. [b]Sedevacantism [/b]presents the origin and history of the sedevacantist movement and its various schools as well as a demonstration of the ultimately absurd consequences of its principles. It follows the prudential attitude of Archbishop Lefebvre by avoiding vain and futile polemics yet simultaneously refusing to shift the problem so far into the theoretical realm that no practical conclusions can be drawn.
____________________________________________________

Other sources: Attila Sinke Guimares, The Remnant, CFN, etc;
____________________________________________________

The charge against Gerry is old. Brought about in [i]The Wanderer [/i]about 6 (?) years ago, by a prominent apologetist. Part one of a promised series. They abruptly pulled it.

Mr. Matatics himself followed up w/ ads :"Gerry [b][i]Schis[/i][/b]-Matatics?" (the man has a sense of humor). But he was blacklisted, and so was Sungenis! And not by the Trads. Them's was the only place left they could go, so to speak, and as far as my fallible knowledge knows.

Aye, it's one big happy family out there.

The best apologia I ever heard was two sentences from Gerry Matatics. He said (I hope I paraphrase correctlyl): [i]Only a future decision NOT by us could definitively settle whether any pope was not a pope. So, in a real sense, we do not have to take this burden on.[/i]

Edited June 15, 2004 by Donna

[Donna]

[i]Everybody was Trad-fu fighting...[/i]
[b]HOOAH!![/b]
[i]Them cats was fast as lightning[/i]
[b]HAH![/b]

[i]Oh whoa whoa whoaaaaa[/i]
_________________________________

I love what the St Benedict Center says re: the SSPX:
[i]It's a love-hate relationship: We love them and they hate us![/i]

So, it must be alotta fun at these Trad gatherings, as well as the conservative ones.

[b]HAH![/b]

Did I ever mention when the distinguished Dr. White was speaking on Shaekespear's [i]Cymbaline[/i], that in the banquet room next door they began blasting [i]Play That Funky Music, White Boy?[/i]

[BeenaBobba]

Hi popestpiusx,

No offense taken.

Anyhow, my point was that those three aren't 100% obedient to the Pope and the current Magisterium. If one isn't 100% Catholic, then it follows that they are in a state of schism to some degree or another, whether they are Sedevacanists, SSPX adherents, or are a bit off regarding Catholic orthodoxy.

God bless,

Jennifer

[Donna]

Jen, please explain what you mean by 100% obedient to the Pope.

Or, do you mean The Papacy, rather?

Thanks.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Donna' date='Jun 15 2004, 02:33 AM'] Jen, please explain what you mean by 100% obedient to the Pope.

Or, do you mean The Papacy, rather?

Thanks. [/quote]
Hi Donna,

Both. If one is disobedient and critical of the Pope in a way that surpasses being critical of hypocritical behavior or whatnot, then one is in a sense critical (or rather, disrespectful) of the papacy, being that the present Pope is the successor of St. Peter.

God bless,

Jennifer

[BeenaBobba]

Also, being not 100% obedient to the Pope would be criticizing his efforts at evangelization and ecumenism (as examples), as is the case with Sungenis.

God bless,

Jen

[Donna]

Thanks, Jen.

When Mr. Sungenis wrote that the Jews must be saved, that the Old Covenent was superceded by the New, is this disobedient or schismatic?

As I recall, this is what blacklisted him.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Donna' date='Jun 15 2004, 03:46 AM'] Thanks, Jen. [/quote]
You're welcome.

[quote]When Mr. Sungenis wrote that the Jews must be saved, that the Old Covenent was superceded by the New, is this disobedient or schismatic?
[/quote]

To the best of my knowledge -- no.

[quote]As I recall, this is what blacklisted him.[/quote]

I was more or less referring to him publically criticizing the Holy Father over the Gathering at Assisi in 2002. Sungenis has been criticized by orthodox Catholics for his public and vocal criticism of the Holy Father.

God bless,

Jennifer