Overdoing Marian Devotion

[P3chrmd]

AMEN Quietfire!

[Guest JeffCR07]

truly, amen.

[Apotheoun]

[quote]Perhaps - however, to get from this, to Mary being sovereign requires huge leaps of logic. Yes, she has great power and holiness, but she is not sovereign.[/quote]


Yes, Mary is sovereign, because she participates in Christ's sole sovereignty. Just as Mary, the saints, and I would add the Church Militant on earth and the Church suffering in purgatory, are all mediators between God and man; because Mary, the saints in heaven, the Church Militant on earth, and those in purgatory, all participate in Christ's sole mediation. To say otherwise is to deny several [i]de fide[/i] doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic faith. I was a Protestant, and I have no interest in being one again. Mary rules with Christ, as will all those who are saved, and she judges the world with Christ, just as all those who are saved will judge the world, and in fact St. Paul goes on to tell us that we shall even judge the angels. [cf., 1 Corinthians 6:1-3] Unlike Protestants, we as Catholics hold that Christ's mediation, His priesthood, His prophetic office, and His kingship, are not something which He covets, but are something that, through the incarnation, He has chosen to share with all those who are incorporated into His Body, the Church.

Edited June 15, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Mary's Knight, La]

I find it difficult to understand a lot of the debate that comes from the non-catholic side.

The more I love Christ the more I love His family both divine and human and extended human family(including friends). It also works in reverse the more I love them the more I love Him 1 because they pray that I will and 2 because by coming to know them I can see why He picked them for His family and friends which in turn teaches me more about Him which enables me to love Him all the more.

A personal relationship with Christ is stressed as necessary for salvation which is proper. How much more personal can it be than by letting His parents mary His human parent and the Father adopt me as a son and brother of Christ.

also if i remember vocabulary lessons what made a person sovereign to an underling was that the underling had pledged fealty to them if they in turn pledge fealty to another i become doubly bound in that I must do what my sovereign's sovereign asks because i am ultimately His property. Indeed this is the only reason obedience to mary is acceptable is because she is in turn still being obedient to God.

If i give myself to mary i know before hand at that same instant she gives me to the Father and moreso in her desire that her Lord and mine should be pleased she will help me to do what He asks of me.

lumberjack says Christ alone but Christ did not enter the world alone and when He died His mother and the son His mother adopted were with Him.

as for the question can mary do anything she wants, questioning her sovereignty, the answer is yes because she wants to do only what Christ wants.


God chose her as His mother because He knew she would co-operate with the graces He gave her to maintain her physical and spiritual purity. Because she is His mother at His choice He honors her like the mother of any king is honored by giving her authority within His domain. His domain is Christianity especially in it's purest form which only exists in Heaven.

as many ways as it can be said it boils down to this she is not a surrogate for Christ rather her helping us to co-operate with saving grace is the most assurance we can have of perservering to the end and Christ saving us.

anyone who claims her as a female deity or femine principle offsetting the male principle is either lying, ignorant, or following false teaching.

to the claim that a lady talked only about mary and not about our Lord i tell you that it is impossible to talk of mary truthfully and not implicitly mention mary. the highest title she has that of mother begs the presence of our Lord. nobody can just be mother even when the word is used as a pronoun the preposition of with it's object is implied. mother of God, mother of mine. with out the "of _____" mother loses all meaning.

[Apotheoun]

[quote]As for the lady in my Godmothers church - she was clearly WORSHIPPING Mary - she told me to 'keep on praying to Mary' for everything I needed.[/quote]

Only God can know the intentions motivating a person's actions. Man can only judge the outward appearances, so in saying that the woman "was clearly WORSHIPPING Mary," you have basically asserted that you, like God, can know the secrets of the heart.

[Cure of Ars]

I found a good article on this subject. Here is a quote;



[color=blue]If an Evangelical Christian believes that devotion to Mary replaces proper devotion to Jesus ask him to imagine what it would be like if he discovered that another Christian group thought Evangelicals were in grave error because of their emphasis on the Bible. Ask him to imagine that these fictional Christians accuse Evangelicals of neglecting Jesus because of their devotion to the Bible.

These hypothetical Christians say, “You evangelicals stress the Bible to the neglect of Jesus. You call your churches ‘Bible’ churches and have ’Bible’ colleges instead of ‘Christian’ churches and colleges. Inside your church you don’t have pictures of Jesus, you don’t have any crucifixes; and you don’t have the Stations of the Cross. Instead, all you have is a big central pulpit to preach the Bible.”

The accusers could go on and point out that “The New Testament says the early Christians ‘devoted themselves … to the breaking of the bread’ (Acts 2:42) and that the way to remember Jesus and proclaim his death is through the Eucharist (1 Cor. 11:24-26); yet you Evangelicals have the Lord’s Supper once a month, or even less often, and the main feature of your church service is a long Bible sermon. You have removed the cross of Christ and replaced it with the Bible.”

These accusers say, “You Evangelicals even have a formal doctrine named sola Scriptura. This man-made dogma is a later distortion and addition to the Christian faith—something that is unheard of both in the Scriptures themselves and in the early church. This dogma (which you treat as infallible) states that the Bible and not Jesus is the only source of Truth. You teach your children to memorize Bible verses instead of receiving Jesus in communion. You teach them to sing, ‘The B-I-B-L-E, / Yes that‘s the book for me. / I stand alone on the word of God….’ Notice how they are not to stand alone on the sure foundation of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 3:11), but on the Bible instead! Evangelical preachers say that there is no way anyone can come to God without believing the Bible. They declare their undying love for the Bible instead of Jesus. They say how their lives are totally dedicated to preaching the Bible instead of the cross of Christ.”

If someone were to make this charge a good Evangelical might well snort with dismay and bewilderment. How could someone so misunderstand his position? Surely they are doing it on purpose! The good Evangelical would patiently explain to his critic, “You have misunderstood completely. Sola Scriptura doesn’t set the Bible in opposition to Jesus. It does exactly the opposite: it helps us to glorify Jesus. Don’t you see that we love the Bible because it gives us access to our Savior? It’s true that we believe people need to know the Bible, but that’s because the written Word and the incarnate Word are inextricably intertwined. You can’t have one without the other. It is really Jesus we worship and proclaim through the Bible. If you just look at our whole practice and teaching with an open mind you would see how misguided and mistaken you really are.”

But the critic of the Evangelical won’t have it. He replies, “No, no. That all sounds very plausible, but you will never convince me. I just know that you worship the Bible instead of Jesus, and all your clever word play just goes to show how blind you really are.”

To prove his point, the critic then says, “I know you Evangelicals worship the Bible instead of Jesus. Just look at this quotation I found that proves it. This comes from an Evangelical one of your classic theological text books.

The Bible … has produced the highest results in all walks of life. It has led to the highest type of creations in the fields of art, architecture, literature, and music.… [Y]ou will find everywhere the higher influence of the Bible. … William E. Gladstone said, “If I am asked to name the one comfort in sorrow, the sole rule of conduct, the true guide of life, I must point to what in the words of a popular hymn is called ‘the old, old story,’ told in an old, old Book, which is God’s best and richest gift to mankind.” [iv]

“You see,” the critic continues with a flourish, “your famous Evangelical leader says that it is not Jesus, but the Bible that is his ‘one comfort’, his ‘true guide’, and ‘God’s best and richest gift to mankind’? It just shows that Evangelicals worship the Bible and not the Lord.”

Of course this is a ridiculous distortion of the Evangelical view, but the extended analogy may help Protestants understand how Catholics feel when they make similarly extreme charges about the Catholic devotion to Mary.

In the face of such charges Catholics reply, “Are you serious? How can you possibly make such a fundamental and basic mistake about what we believe? We don’t venerate Mary on her own, but because she has given us our Savior and because she constantly leads us to him. If you took time to study our whole teaching and practice you will see how this is true.”

In debate with non-Catholics we should admit that some Catholics may over-emphasize Mary, just like some Evangelicals may take extreme views on the Bible. But we should also admit that both Catholics and Protestants warn against such dangers, and as we ask them to understand our point of view we should also try to honestly understand theirs. [/color]

[url="http://www.dwightlongenecker.com/Content/Pages/Articles/Apologetics/DistortedDevotions.asp"]http://www.dwightlongenecker.com/Content/P...edDevotions.asp[/url]

[Guest JeffCR07]

That was really good Cure, thanks a ton!

[Cure of Ars]

No problem.

[cmotherofpirl]

WORD!
Put it in the Apologetic section.