theculturewarrior Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 It doesn't sound that way to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archbishop 10-K Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote]i can never understand it when Protestants say "Christ Alone." To me, it sounds like He could use a friend or something.[/quote] :thatsfunny: Oh, dude, I just cracked up at that one. :rotfl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 That's if you're reading the prayer in your head rather than in it's intention. it was written out of love for Our Lady, not an attempt to summarize theological truths about her but simply to pray to her in faith and love. "my sovereign, my queen, my empress." i don't need to add in "but of course that's only by Jesus' power and you're mother of God because the Council of Ephesus delcared you such and because you're the mother of God your the Queen in the new Davidic Kingdom..." simply, I as a catechized Christian who understands the theology behind her, can say to her: "you are my sovereign, my queen, my empress, i am your servant and slave" and I can know that it is only because of Christ, but i don't need to complicated the simple prayer with so many words when it's understood. When you go into the throne room to meet the queen, you don't start explaining her lineage to her and say that's the reason you are queen. don't confuzzle the issue. and i have no idea where that word came from "confuzzle" and why it has infaltrated my lexicon, but whatever. PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 14 2004, 02:26 PM'] lumberjack, in your view of Christ, is he a lonely guy up there in the sky? or is He perhaps surrounded and overjoyed in the people He won by His blood? i can never understand it when Protestants say "Christ Alone." To me, it sounds like He could use a friend or something. PAX [/quote] you twist the meaning of Christ alone to think that we mean Christ IS alone. (I HOPE) you know that its not what is meant... we mean that Christ ALONE is our mediator and saviour...no one else in Heaven or earth. I follow Christ as His Holy Spirit convicts and leads. I pray to God and Christ in Christ's name and in His Holy Spirit and to no one else. Christ is not alone in Heaven, but He alone is our saviour and mediator. notice how I put Christ first and only...as in no others. and yeah, Icthus, I can see how my sovereign, my queen, my empress, can be VERY misleading... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote]I suppose a Queen could, by default, be called a sovereign, just as a title. But that doesn't mean that she can just do anything she wants - all her power depends on her Son.[/quote] Why do we, pitiful human man, feel the need to equate everything down to words that we can comprehend. Where do you get the impression that she can do "anything she wants" Yes, all her power depends on her Son, who is GOD. Jesus being fully devine and fully human means that no man on earth could give to his mother what he has given and continues to give to his mother, who is my mother too. So leave my mother alone! Or her Son will kick your butt! Got it? Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 (edited) jh Edited June 14, 2004 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote]Yes, all her power depends on her Son, who is GOD. Jesus being fully devine and fully human means that no man on earth could give to his mother what he has given and continues to give to his mother, who is my mother too. So leave my mother alone! Or her Son will kick your butt! Got it? Peace.[/quote] On the contrary, I'm trying to clarify her relationship to us, but it seems like the Catholic Church keeps elevating her higher and higher in her documents - higher than even typological connection will allow. And, I think a lot of Roman Catholics are going to get their butts kicked - [b]straight into Hell[/b] - when they find out they have been praying to Mary and actually giving Latria to her, like that lady in my Godmothers church, and the people I saw in Mexico on documentary who were basically outright saying they were worshipping Mary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 (edited) HERE! I posted a whole thread on this titled..."Understanding the mother of GOD." Its about two pages back if you care to read it, but I will post the first part here for you. Peace. Our understanding of Our Blessed Lady depends totally upon our understanding of her Son. Everything about her flows from her being Christ's mother; as our understanding of him grows, our understanding of her grows. It was so with the Church. By the year 500 the main dogmas about Christ had been defined (yes! 500 years people!) The Church's mind could now bear upon his Mother; we come to hear the Assumption and Immaculate Conception. It is so with ourselves: unless we have some knowledge of the doctrines of Trinity of Incarnation, we can still love her but cannot know her; and we know that loving without deep knowledge is only a shadow of loving. Theoketos, said the Council of Ephesus in 431; she is the mother of God; the child she conceived and bore is God the Son. In his divine nature he had exited eternally. But his human nature he owed to her as much as anyone owes his human nature to his mother. There is nothing that makes my mother mine which is lacking in her relation to him as man. As God he was born of the Father before all ages; as man he was born at a particular point of time of the Virgin Mary. Do not think it sufficient to call her the mother of his human nature; for natures do not have mothers. She was mother, as yours or mine is, of the person born of her. And the person was God the Son. Most find this truth almost shattering in its greatness; it is not simply a biographical fact about Jesus which one notes but does not linger upon. There are those who do see it like that and so dismiss it. One imagines them saying, "Naturally, if God was to be born into our world, one would expect him to have a mother; but haveing brought him to birth she had done her duty and passes into the background." If though of all by such people, she is thought of with respect. But she is not often thought of. There is a type of religious mind which brushes creatures aside as irrelevant, indeed a distraction from the Absolute. The Absolute did not find them so. The Son died for them; for them the Father spared not his own Son (Rom 8:33) I have put it this way of looking at her as a sort or rough outline of a whole state of mind. In its more extreme utterance it can be so comic that one almost forgets how tragic it is. On the outdoor platform I once had a questioner who said, solemnly: "I respect Christ's mother as I respect my own." The overwhelming temptation, when one hears such a remark, is to point to the difference between the two sons. But it is necessary to make clear why the difference makes a difference. We are not saying that mothers of holy children are better that mothers of less holy. The difference is not between on son who is holy and another who is less obviously so. It is between a Son who is God and a son who is man only. To start simply, the Son existed before his mother. So that he is the only Son who is in a postition to choose who his mother should be. He could choose therefore, what every son would choose if he could, a mother who would suit him best. Further, it goes with the very heart of sonship that a son wants to give his mother gifts; and Christ, being God, could give her all that she would want. To his giving power there was no limit. And what above all she wanted was union with God, the completest union possible to a human being of her will with God's will, grace therefore in her soul. He was her Son, and he gave it lavishly. She responded totally, so that she was sinless. It was her response to the grace of God that made her supreme in holiness- higher even than the highest angel, the Church tells us. We may pause for a moment to look at this truth. By nature she was lower than the least angel, for human nature as such is less than angelic. But, any relation in the order of grace is higher than any in the order of nature. It is by grace that we are closer to God; by our response, that is, to the created share in his own life that God offers us. By grace Our Lady outranks all created beings. But only because she responded to God's love more perfectly. St. John Chrysostom says, "She would not have been blessed, though she had borne him in the body, had she not heard the word of God and kept it." I could go into the Immaculate Conception and Assumption to further explain so that one can understand the above statement. I will leave that to you, dear readers of Phatmass. But I warn you, once you understand... I will bump up the rest of the thread. H&K Edited June 14, 2004 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Icthus, I dont think anyone is arguing with you on the point that Mary worship is idolatry. To elevate her above Christ, or to lose sight of Christ in your praise of her, isn't just bad, its a sin. But the Church is [i]very[/i] clear on its teachings with regards to her. It is up to us to make sure that we follow what the Church says and teaches. As long as we obey the Magisterium, and this goes beyond Marian doctrine, we will always be "safe and in the clear." If I lovingly praise my own mother, I am doing honor to Christ in a twofold manner. First, by obeying His Commandment to honor our mothers and fathers, not simply in my mind, words, and deeds, but in my heart. Second, and more importantly, by loving my mother AND loving my creator, I do homage to my creator by glorifying his creation. If I praise a piece of jewelry, I am, ultimately, giving greater praise to the one who made it. How much more, then, do we praise the Father when we praise Mary, the one creation in the history of earth that was deemed worthy to be the vessel to bring God into the World. Also, just for my own personal interest, I was wondering what your response to my previous analogy (the one comparing Christ and Mary to a King and his vassel Lord) - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 14 2004, 05:38 PM'] On the contrary, I'm trying to clarify her relationship to us, but it seems like the Catholic Church keeps elevating her higher and higher in her documents - higher than even typological connection will allow. And, I think a lot of Roman Catholics are going to get their butts kicked - [b]straight into Hell[/b] - when they find out they have been praying to Mary and actually giving Latria to her, like that lady in my Godmothers church, and the people I saw in Mexico on documentary who were basically outright saying they were worshipping Mary. [/quote] The Church is not elevating anyone. Rather, it has always kept Mary at the same level. I'm sorry to see that that level seems too high for you. The Church should decide what's proper, not you. And since when could you see in people's hearts to know whether or not they were offering dulia, hyperdulia, or latria? I think mustbenothing is having a bad influence on you, Ichtus. And I'm sorry, but you don't seem strong enough in your faith to be able to defend it adequately. You need to take a break from this guy and learn everything you can about the faith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 I'm praying that the Holy Spirit lead you to where the Lord wants you to be, Icthus. nothing more, nothing less. Christ first and only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 The thing I don't understand about society today is how the rampant moral relativism can pervade everything, even religion. Dave prays for Icthus to learn about the faith and to return to the Church, but somehow (lumberjack, I apologize for picking you out, but know that there really isn't any malice in the statement, only sadness) that is less noble than praying for him to be taken to one of a number of options. If we believe, as the Bible teaches, that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and a member of the Trinity, then we are establishing a belief in the Greek idea of [i]Logos[/i]. Catholics know this Truth to be the Church, and so we pray for his return to it, sincerely and with fervor. But somehow this heartfelt prayer becomes demonized at the hands of relativism, because it "isn't open" to the "many options" that exist. I'm not saying that Protestants or all non-Catholics go to hell. I don't believe that. I guess I'm just saying that the Holy Spirit and Christ are the path to heaven, and for Dave to pray that he returns to the Church is THE SAME THING as for him to pray for the Spirit to lead Icthus where ever it wills. Because the Spirit wills all people to the Church, the mystical body of Christ, his eternal Bride. Icthus, Lumberjack, I mean it when I say that I really do pray that I'll see you at the wedding feast in the new jerusalem. - Always and forever, Your Brother in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote name='Dave' date='Jun 14 2004, 04:54 PM'] The Church is not elevating anyone. Rather, it has always kept Mary at the same level. I'm sorry to see that that level seems too high for you. The Church should decide what's proper, not you. And since when could you see in people's hearts to know whether or not they were offering dulia, hyperdulia, or latria? I think mustbenothing is having a bad influence on you, Ichtus. And I'm sorry, but you don't seem strong enough in your faith to be able to defend it adequately. You need to take a break from this guy and learn everything you can about the faith! [/quote] Actually, I am exposed to very little of Johns arguments nowadays, Dave. As for the lady in my Godmothers church - she was clearly WORSHIPPING Mary - she told me to 'keep on praying to Mary' for everything I needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Funny, I would have asked this woman if she is worshipping Mary or showing devotion? We can go to Mary for anything. She is the mother of God. Did you even read the thread I told you about? Please read it. Then respond. Please. Please. Thats 3 times. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Mary is fully human. She is our role model. Albiet she is a woman, but men see her as a role model also. I myself often think of her and try to lead my life by her example. She was completely open to God's will. She outranks even the highest angel. She has been given that much by God because she gave her total self to Him. Again, please read the post. "Understanding the mother of God" Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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