Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Icthus, just a few things: [quote]Christ the King is undoubtedly sovereign, but His Queen has power only insofar as she has it from Him - thus, she is not sovereign[/quote] It is true, she is not sovereign, but we also must acknowledge that she has a unique closeness with the Trinity, being the spouse of the Spirit and the Mother of Christ. We know, via dogmatic teaching, that the Trinity is a full giving and pouring out of love, from each person to each person. God infinitely loves the son, the son infinitly loves the father, and that infinite love, IS the spirit. It is not a far leap to say that Mary, who loves her son Perfectly, and does the will of the Father Explicetly, and is open to the Spirit Absolutely, would not share in the authority of heaven. I am not saying that she is a "fourth" person in the Trinity, she is not. However, as you said, the Queen has power insofar as it is given to her by Christ. Is it really that hard to imagine that a loving son would not share everything he has with an obediant and submissive mother? Especially when that son is Christ... -Your Brother in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote]Is it really that hard to imagine that a loving son would not share everything he has with an obediant and submissive mother? Especially when that son is Christ...[/quote] Perhaps - however, to get from this, to Mary being sovereign requires huge leaps of logic. Yes, she has great power and holiness, but she is not [b]sovereign[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 I acknowledge your dilemma, though I don't personally have a problem believing that Christ shares everything with Mary, including sovereign authority. However, I would also like to point out (don't interpret this as chastising) that is also requires HUGE leaps of faith to think that Imprimaturs and Nihil Obstats are given out idly. The Church is, despite criticism from all sides, the vessel of Christ's truth. The way I like to think of it when I run into problems like the one you're having is that I have the "impressive" wisdom of 18 years to work with (self-directed sarcasm), while the Church has 2000 years of the Holy Spirit directing its judgements. If the prayer truly has an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, there cannot be any error in it. Also, it should also be considered that the last shall be first, and Mary was the humblest servant of God ever. If we take Christ at his word, then Mary's reward for service in this life is authority in heaven, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 (edited) [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 14 2004, 01:41 PM'] I acknowledge your dilemma, though I don't personally have a problem believing that Christ shares everything with Mary, including sovereign authority. However, I would also like to point out (don't interpret this as chastising) that is also requires HUGE leaps of faith to think that Imprimaturs and Nihil Obstats are given out idly. The Church is, despite criticism from all sides, the vessel of Christ's truth. The way I like to think of it when I run into problems like the one you're having is that I have the "impressive" wisdom of 18 years to work with (self-directed sarcasm), while the Church has 2000 years of the Holy Spirit directing its judgements. If the prayer truly has an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, there cannot be any error in it. [/quote] [quote]I acknowledge your dilemma, though I don't personally have a problem believing that Christ shares everything with Mary, including sovereign authority.[/quote] Why? There's only one Person described as Sovereign in Scripture, and that's God. I can understand the typology behind the immaculate conception, and I do not deny it. But I draw the line at sovereignty. [quote]Also, it should also be considered that the last shall be first, and Mary was the humblest servant of God ever. If we take Christ at his word, then Mary's reward for service in this life is authority in heaven, isn't it?[/quote] Yes, she has authority, [b]but only insofar as it is given her by her Son![/b] This prayer, in declaring Mary 'sovereign', basically elevates her past the level of a highly glorified CREATURE and makes her a fourth person of the "Blessed Quadrinity" Also, you contradicted yourself. [quote name='Jeff']I acknowledge your dilemma, though I don't personally have a problem [b]believing that Christ shares everything with Mary, including sovereign authority[/b].[/quote][quote] It is true, [b]she is not sovereign[/b], but we also must acknowledge that she has a unique closeness with the Trinity, being the spouse of the Spirit and the Mother of Christ. [/quote] Edited June 14, 2004 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Icthus, I had brought this up before...as to how Latin American Catholicism is what it is...and was summarily quieted for it. I'm glad that you see at least a little bit of what I do. If I'm wrong as to your inquiry, forgive me...but I do see the extreme marian devotion in a great majority of my people in Mexico. God bless. Christ first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 just to clarify what may seem to be a "contradiction" in my argument, your last little bit is really a question of escalology, that is, the underlying meaning of a word or phrase. In quote 1, I was trying to say "Mary is not THE sovereign" In quote 2, I was trying to say that "THE sovereign, Christ, has granted Mary a share in His sovereignty in heaven" I didn't make it clear, and I sincerely apologize. Let me also draw an analogy: There is a King in a land who is sovereign. Beneath him is a feudal Lord. The Lord swears absolute fealty to the King, and all that he owns is ultimately the King's. However, the Lord is still sovereign. So is the King. If I am a slave to my sovereign Lord, then I am, ultimately, a slave to THE sovereign, who is the King. My service to the sovereign Lord, who is granted his sovereignty by the King, is viewed by the King, and rightly so, as service to him. Thus, Mary's sovereignty does not threaten Christ's and neither does service to her negate service to Him hope that helps clarify, and I'm really sorry for the confusion! - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 carp, flip those quotes, I hope you know what I mean, lol Sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote]as my sovereign, my queen, my empress, and I declare myself, as I am in fact, your servant and your slave. [/quote] Mary is the Queen of Heaven. Queen = Sovereign. Jesus = King. Mary = Queen. Jesus is fully human and fully divine, so of course he is going to honor his Mother. What's the mother of a king? You guessed it, a queen, AKA a Sovereign. Can the scrupulosity folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Blaze Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 14 2004, 01:58 PM'] Icthus, I had brought this up before...as to how Latin American Catholicism is what it is...and was summarily quieted for it. I'm glad that you see at least a little bit of what I do. If I'm wrong as to your inquiry, forgive me...but I do see the extreme marian devotion in a great majority of my people in Mexico. God bless. Christ first. [/quote] CHRIST FIRST, through any means necessary, including his mother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 nope...Christ first. alone. Christ. the Holy Spirit intercedes for us with groanings that can not be comprehended. hmmm...would seem as if God's own Spirit is working with us in our relationship with Christ...and not Mary. Christ first, with no middle men...or women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3chrmd Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 poor lumberjack...you never give up do you! Can't wait till we are all in heaven...and everyone sees Mary at the right hand of her son on the throne with a crown on her head! And all the protestants go "Wow...the catholics were right"....well actually you will know we were right before that...because of purgatory! LOL God Bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Jun 14 2004, 02:20 PM'] Mary is the Queen of Heaven. Queen = Sovereign. Jesus = King. Mary = Queen. Jesus is fully human and fully divine, so of course he is going to honor his Mother. What's the mother of a king? You guessed it, a queen, AKA a Sovereign. Can the scrupulosity folks. [/quote] I suppose a Queen could, by default, be called a sovereign, just as a title. But that doesn't mean that she can just do anything she wants - all her power depends on her Son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 So what's the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 lumberjack, in your view of Christ, is he a lonely guy up there in the sky? or is He perhaps surrounded and overjoyed in the people He won by His blood? i can never understand it when Protestants say "Christ Alone." To me, it sounds like He could use a friend or something. PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Jun 14 2004, 03:24 PM'] So what's the problem? [/quote] The prayer makes it sound like she's sovereign by her own right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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