Overdoing Marian Devotion

[ICTHUS]

Is it possible to overdo Marian devotion??

[quote name='http://www.azcentral.com/culturesaz/hispanic/guadalupe2.html']Our Lady of Guadalupe center of Mexican faith

Jack Kurtz/The Arizona Republic

Cipriano Vicente de Arcos Gomez, holding a doll representing the baby Jesus, is among thousands of Mexicans who this year are continuing the tradition of visiting their saint's home.

Catholic festival honors patron saint

Tessie Borden
Republic Mexico City Bureau


She is patron, protector, political lightning rod and pop-culture icon. But above all, the Virgin of Guadalupe is the spiritual mother of Mexico.

Today, the country celebrates its foremost saint, the Virgin it calls Our Lady of Guadalupe, one of the most popular figures in the Catholic faith. And millions will do so here, at the basilica on Tepeyac hill, with a midnight Mass, songs, poems and regional Indian dances.

"It's like a tradition for us," Cipriano Vicente de Arcos Gomez said recently. Wearing an Aztec feathered headdress, loincloth and anklets ringing with "ayayote" nuts, the 22-year-old dancer and his group had just finished a three-hour procession to the basilica. "[b]A person can have her picture and worship her in his town[/b], but it's not the same thing as coming here to her home."


Streets have been closed for days around Tepeyac, about seven miles north of the city center, as pilgrims throng Calzada de Guadalupe, the avenue leading to the square where several churches dedicated to the Virgin stand.

Near the top of the hill, in 1531, the Virgin Mary is said to have appeared four times to a Christianized Indian named Juan Diego, speaking in his native Nahuatl language.

Tradition says she sent him to the bishop of Mexico City with a message to build a chapel for her on Tepeyac. The doubting bishop asked for proof of the apparition. The Virgin caused roses to grow on the summit of the barren hill and then instructed Juan Diego to gather them in his "tilma," or cloak, and take them to the bishop. When Juan Diego opened the tilma and the roses spilled out before the bishop, the Virgin's dark-skinned image, radiating light and wearing a blue-green star-spangled mantle, remained stamped on it.

The cloth and the image - nicknamed "La Morenita" or The Dark One - today are enshrined in a modern basilica big enough for 12,000.

Juvencio Araujo, a 46-year-old cobbler from Leon, Guanajuato, in central Mexico, invoked the ultimate expression of respect used by indigenous Mexicans to describe her: "She's the pure one of the pure Indians."

Since the beginning of November, overloaded caravans of pickup trucks and buses have been arriving from all over the country. Huge groups set out walking or bicycling from the gates of sponsor factories or neighborhood churches, carrying elaborate flowered altars and standards depicting the Virgin.

"They do it because of their beliefs, to give thanks because they have done well at work," said Gustavo Escobar, 21, who arrived with a cycling group from the Oneida flatware factory in Toluca, about 30 miles west of Mexico City. It was his first time on the pilgrimage, but he said other riders have been doing it for up to 15 years.

"They come to give thanks because they have good health or their family is well, or more than anything, because things are going well for the factory," Escobar said.

But the Virgin also has been a figure of war and controversy.

In 1810, Father Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla, one of the country's founding fathers, used a standard bearing the Virgin's likeness as he rallied Indians and mestizos to fight for Mexican independence from Spain.

When the young country fell into revolution at the beginning of the 20th century, the church was reviled for its role in the power structure that oppressed poor Mexicans during and after Spanish rule.

The emerging new government, under what became the Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI), passed laws that severely restricted the church's public life, including rules that prohibited priests and nuns from wearing cassocks and habits in public.

Though Mexican legislators relaxed the anti-church stance in 1991, it was still a shock when Vicente Fox, then the presidential candidate from the right-leaning National Action Party (PAN), once more took up the Virgin's standard during the campaign. After he won the presidency, he re-asserted his faith in Guadalupe.

Just hours before standing up at the Mexican Congress to give his inauguration speech on Dec. 1, Fox knelt at the basilica to pray. It was a move many PRI members criticized as blurring the line between church and state.

But the people welcomed the gesture.

Raul Rodriguez, who was there with about 250 other workers from the container company Envases Generales S.A., said, "If we see him as a citizen and not as a public person, he has a right to come and profess his faith like anyone else. We don't have any reason to criticize it."

Last year, a dispute arose regarding the veracity of the Juan Diego tradition. Three priests who had worked at the basilica wrote to the Vatican objecting to the possibility that the church might canonize Juan Diego. They said they did not believe the Indian really existed. One of them, the Rev. Carlos Warnholz, called the Virgin's image a painting after getting a close look at it.

All three of the priests, however, recognized it as "mystical" and say the story is a valuable reinforcement of Mexicans' faith in Christ.

Veneration of the Virgin of Guadalupe, once the province of Mexican devotees, has spread north with migrants moving to the United States.

Her image is commonplace not only in traditionally Hispanic cities like Tucson, Los Angeles and Houston, but also in Midwestern cities that have seen their Mexican populations explode in recent years. Many Catholic dioceses have churches named after Guadalupe, including Phoenix, where the main cathedral is dedicated to her, said Santos Vega, coordinator of research outreach for the Hispanic Research Center at Arizona State University.

Though Guadalupe had been Mexico's patron since 1895, Pope John Paul II crowned her patron saint and evangelizer of the entire American continent in January 1999, said Father Jesus Guizar Villanueva, canon at the basilica. And Guadalupe pilgrimages from the United States have been multiplying for some time.

"Devotion to the Virgin is very much entrenched in the United States," Villanueva said. "She is no longer just for Chicanos."

She is also no longer just a religious icon.

Ana Castillo, a Mexican-American writer who in 1992 edited Goddess of the Americas, a book of essays about the Virgin, considers the Madonna from a feminist perspective, as a symbol of the strength of mothers and of women.

[b]"I focus more on her as a deity," said Castillo, who was preparing to invite several women to her Chicago-area home for a Guadalupe celebration. "She is the goddess of 10,000 names, a goddess of power. In feminist religious interpretations, (people) include her in a kind of pantheon of goddesses. She has that energy for me."[/b]

In 1999, a digitally reproduced replica of the Virgin's original image attracted a rock-star-like reception of nearly 50,000 spectators to the Los Angeles Coliseum after a tour of 58 area churches. Overwrought followers threw themselves on the image, kissed the glass and strained to touch the frame as it was paraded through the streets before entering the arena.

And at Tepeyac, the Virgin has become an easily marketable commodity.

In the past three years, roaming vendors selling plaques, plastic statues and even snow-domes of the Virgin have taken over the church plaza, which used to be reserved for dancers and [b]worshippers[/b], said Francisco Mata, who manages the official Guadalupe souvenir shop in the underground garage. He said the vendors pay a daily quota to three leaders who have worked out "informal" arrangements with government officials to allow the vendors to stay.

Mata and others say the commerce cheapens the Virgin's meaning. But to the [b]oldest worshippers[/b], the vendors matter little.

"It's important to us to visit our Blessed Mother," said Maria Guadalupe Lopez Lore, a 75-year-old, white-clad dancer leading a group of frail-looking women from Chiapas in a ritual dance with walking canes. [b]"This is the religion we have. We don't want to lose our traditions[/b]."[/quote] I see. So Mexican Catholicism centres around Mary, not her Son. Isn't this missing the point entirely (not to mention blasphemously WRONG!!??) Also, why doesn't the Vatican do something about the Mexicans and their Mary worship?

This is the first 4 paragraphs. It never mentions Mary, God, the Bible and only menitons the Catholics Church once. Its all about her being a cultural icon. Also notice that she went dressed as an AZTEC to "worship." The Aztecs are very famous for their anual HUMAN SACRIFICE of at last 20,000 people. WHY is she dressing as an AZTEC to WORSHIP The Virgin Guadalupe who is suppose to be Mary?

That speaks for itself. This is what the people believe.

The first part talks about how its a good business. It then talks about those who worship her. The last section talks about a woman who refers to The Virgin Guadalupe as her religion. She isn't talking about the Catholic Church. She is talking about local tradition and the Virgin Guadalupe.

EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS ISN'T aA HYBRID OF THE VIRGIN MARY WITH LOCAL TRADITION AND MYTHOLOGY?!? Read this quote one more time "She is the goddess of 10,000 names, a goddess of power."

Edited June 12, 2004 by ICTHUS

[littleflower+JMJ]

lets start off with that it is not tradition or a legend but in fact true. there has been scientists from all over hte world invesitage and study the tilma. so those priests are wrong to call it a painting. and that tilma is only supose to last at best 3 years, its stil intact today. the colors are unmatchable with any other color in the world, so just to cover that.

as with terms of worshipping, this is indeed wrong but i do have to spot two things, the terminology is probably just being misused and the different aspect of culture and way of life that Mexicans have that can easily be misunderstood.

this is not too much or overdoing it, it is simply a country, poverty-stricken, with a government rule of a history of religious persecution, searching and finding peace and hope in Our Lady.

many may not understand this because the bond and verneration that is taken place is deeply rooted in who these people are. The Virgen de Guadalupe is and has been their way to God, truly in the sense.

most procession, mass or celebration will have benediction, etc. as well and always in front of the Blessed Mother. you will always find Jesus present as well.
they are inseparable.

I see Mexico as a country in complete gratitude and devotion to Our Lady, paying their respects. this is something that is a rarity is the deep sense of always [i] thanking[/i] for any good and all good that has been given to them in the Mexican .

simple things such as having a year with food on the table is nothing less than a miracle for them to have, or havign a job (i dont think i have to tell you how little this country has if so i will), making a pilgramage and visiting the shrine to pray is nothing too extreme for them, their answered prayers lead them to also be faithful in thanksgiving... These people, many have nothing in this world, but need so much, many only have their devotion to Our Blessed Mother to live on.

and they show us how we can be thankful when much is given.....

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 12 2004, 06:21 PM'] I see. So Mexican Catholicism centres around Mary, not her Son. Isn't this missing the point entirely (not to mention blasphemously WRONG!!??) Also, why doesn't the Vatican do something about the Mexicans and their Mary worship?

[/quote]
I am Mexican, I have a devotion to Our Lady, ask anyone, ANYONE who heart is in the right place, whos a faithful catholic, and they will tell you as well. that we do NOT worship Mary and any other misconceptions that ppl may chose to see.

its not smart, not wise to judge simply on one biased NEWSPAPAER ARTICle. Because it not only lacks understanding but has NO place to say what it says.


[quote]This is the first 4 paragraphs. It never mentions Mary, God, the Bible and only menitons the Catholics Church once. Its all about her being a cultural icon. Also notice that she went dressed as an AZTEC to "worship." The Aztecs are very famous for their anual HUMAN SACRIFICE of at last 20,000 people. WHY is she dressing as an AZTEC to WORSHIP The Virgin Guadalupe who is suppose to be Mary?[/quote]

whoa ho ho. lets hold on a minute here. Mexicans are both Spanish blood and INDIAN blood, their ANCESTORS are indian making many of them Aztecs and other tribes, is it wrong for one to dress up to their heritage?

the BLessed Mother came to everyone and converted all, Indians included, have you not seen the picutre of the Virgen de Guadalupe, OUR LADY is dressed in the clothes that colors and lcother that they recognized and wore but with a different message. A MESSAGE TO CONVERT TO HER SON. you really need to study on the image. there is so much that is indicated in the image alone that is amazing.



[quote]That speaks for itself. This is what the people believe. [/quote].


if your going to judge a WHOLE CHURCH APPROVED APPARITION AND DEVOTION ON ONE NEWSPAPER ARTICLE than that is [b]sad.[/b]

i see this article as both FLAWED and MISREPRESENTED. they are not only avoiding the facts but asking the wrong people. but im not surprised, thats the way the work. knock down anything and everything that gives ppl faith.


[quote]The first part talks about how its a good business. It then talks about those who worship her. [/quote]

is the passion wrong cuz now that everyone in the whole world is buying nails instead of crucifixes? is it wrong cuz its making so much money that ppl are making a BUSINESS out of it?

of course things will become commercialized, i dotn like it but when it happens is not fault or part of the devotion or faith itself. these are ppl making money not the Church.

[quote]The last section talks about a woman who refers to The Virgin Guadalupe as her religion. She isn't talking about the Catholic Church. She is talking about local tradition and the Virgin Guadalupe.[/quote]

this article reminds me of the time when they were hitting on priests being married. saw it 60 minutes, they asked d priest who LEFT the Church about it. hardly creditial and hardly TRUTH.


[quote]EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS ISN'T aA HYBRID OF THE VIRGIN MARY WITH LOCAL TRADITION AND MYTHOLOGY?!? Read this quote one more time "She is the goddess of 10,000 names, a goddess of power."[/quote]

that is lunatic, simply said. someone who doesnt know her faith, and to base it on one lunatic (or two) is simple ridiculous.

im sorry but if your gonna follow this article your missing the whole point by a long shot.

dont fall for it.

[Aloysius]

you know something that can be overdone? being theologically terminology accurate.

PAX

[Livin_the_MASS]

We do not worship Mary but we love Her and honor Her as Jesus did. Her rose Her up and made Her Queen of Heaven and Earth.

If Jesus does so do I. Mary takes us to Jesus, look at the Holy Rosary given to us by Our Lady, it is meditation on the life of Christ.

I'm not even going to comment on the article, it speaks for itself.

[Apotheoun]

[quote]"I focus more on her as a deity," said Castillo, who was preparing to invite several women to her Chicago-area home for a Guadalupe celebration. "She is the goddess of 10,000 names, a goddess of power. In [b][i]feminist religious interpretations[/i][/b], (people) include her in a kind of pantheon of goddesses. She has that energy for me."[/quote]

First I would point out that this comment in the article has very little to with with some type of mixing ". . . of the virgrin Mary with local tradition and mythology"; instead, it betrays notions founded on modern feminist theology, and this is clear from the comment in the quotation which I have hightlighted in bold face italic font. Fenimist theology in general is notorious for blending [i]gnostic[/i] and other non-Christian ideas into Christian thought. So, it is best to recognize this statement for what it is, a form of the modernist heresy that should be rejected out of hand.

[quote]"I see. So Mexican Catholicism centres around Mary, not her Son. Isn't this missing the point entirely (not to mention blasphemously WRONG!!  Also, why doesn't the Vatican do something about the Mexicans and their Mary worship?"[/quote]

Clearly, it is an over-generalization to say that "Mexican" Catholicism centers on Mary and not her Divine Son, simply because one article in the "Arizona Republic" seems to imply that. The article and the poster's own comments betray an ignorance of the Catholic distinction between relative (dulia or proskenysis) and absolute (latria) worship. For more information on this distinction you can read a paper I wrote while working on my BA in Philosophy and Religion at San Francisco State University entitled, [u]The Sin of Idolatry and the Catholic Concept of Iconic Participation[/u]. The paper can be found at the following website:
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm[/url]

[Hananiah]

[quote]"It's like a tradition for us," Cipriano Vicente de Arcos Gomez said recently. Wearing an Aztec feathered headdress, loincloth and anklets ringing with "ayayote" nuts, the 22-year-old dancer and his group had just finished a three-hour procession to the basilica. "A person can have her picture and worship her in his town, but it's not the same thing as coming here to her home."[/quote]
"Worship" could just be a bad translation here. Until recently the word worship had a broad semantic range in English, so it could be used in reference to dulia or latria. This is why you will find unapologetic references to worship of Mary and the saints in Catholic literature from 100 years ago or so. Now the word seems to be synonymous with latria. Maybe Spanish just hasn't made that switch.

[quote]"I focus more on her as a deity," said Castillo, who was preparing to invite several women to her Chicago-area home for a Guadalupe celebration. "She is the goddess of 10,000 names, a goddess of power. In feminist religious interpretations, (people) include her in a kind of pantheon of goddesses. She has that energy for me."[/quote]
This woman is an apostate and an idolater.

[quote]In the past three years, roaming vendors selling plaques, plastic statues and even snow-domes of the Virgin have taken over the church plaza, which used to be reserved for dancers and worshippers, said Francisco Mata, who manages the official Guadalupe souvenir shop in the underground garage. He said the vendors pay a daily quota to three leaders who have worked out "informal" arrangements with government officials to allow the vendors to stay.

Mata and others say the commerce cheapens the Virgin's meaning. But to the oldest worshippers, the vendors matter little.[/quote]
There can be "worshippers" at a Church named after Mary without Mary being the object of worship. Heck, my Church is named after St. Cyprian, and as much as I respect a man who teaches [i]extra ecclesiam nulla salus[/i], I don't worship him.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Hey everyone, I'm an American catholic, and while I'm not Mexican, I've met many mexican Catholics, and in no way, shape, or form do they "worship" Mary. In fact, I would go so far as to praise them on their stance. So many Catholics are becoming afraid of Marian Devotion because of the fear that it may "appear" to be worship. With regards to the article, it is pretty obviously either biased, or simply a bad spanish-english translation.

The Castillo women, based on her quote and the title of the book that she apparently wrote, seems to me to NOT be Catholic, but rather, to be some type of modernist/feminist religious writer. If she IS Catholic, then she's definately, as you said, an "apostate and an idolater."

Anyways, don't get too freaked out by this one article. We shouldn't believe all the "facts" about Catholicism that we hear from others, especially when those others are non-credible sources.

[Archbishop 10-K]

As a citizen of San Antonio, TX, I've witnessed a whole lot of devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe by Hispanic Americans. Since I live in a Protestant family, that was originally pretty weird for me, but the devotion seems to make them much stronger Catholics and Christians in general, so it's all cool with me.

Although if/when they do cross the line into worshipping Mary, then I'm gonna go gung-ho on them.

[Cure of Ars]

There is also the difference between the language of love and the language of theology. I could say that I adore my wife. But I really do not mean that I think that she is God or that I worship her. On the other hand if I say I'm going to Eucharistic adoration. In that context I mean worship. This is nothing new here is saint Athanasius doing the same type of thing.


"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O (Ark of the) Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which Divinity resides." (Athanasius of Alexandria 328 A.D., Homily of the Papyrus of Turin)

Edited June 13, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

For mainline protestants who have trouble with the whole "love of Mary leads to love of Jesus," I refer them to marriage. They don't believe marriage is a sacrament, but do believe that Jesus must be present in the marriage. A common love for Jesus leads you to a love for your spouse and a love for your spouse leads you to a better love in Jesus. You do not worship your spouse, but cherish her and devote yourself to her--the same thing that Catholics do with Mary. A love of Mary will lead us to her Son and, in imitation of Jesus, we love and honor Mary just as He does and the 4th commandment tells us. Not only that, but the fourth commandment is the only commandment with a promise from the Lord if we obey. There may be some who really do worship her and they need to be corrected on their ways.

Overall, we as Americans or people not of Mexico or Central America cannot understand the importance of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Many protestants speak highly of ministers who helped them get saved. Our Lady of Guadalupe in her apparition led to the conversion of all of Mexico and Central America in mere years. Amazing! We should cherish her for the salvation of countless souls.

Edited June 13, 2004 by 1337 k4th0l1x0r

[yiannii]

[quote]Is it possible to overdo Marian devotion??[/quote]

It's possible to overdo any devotion.

[una_fide]

Not devotion to the Trinity! Not devotion to our -:king: [b]![/b] I mean He's got the whole :globe: in His hands!! He gave us a , and a :queen:, and everything! He even gave us :elvis:! And no, He's not this guy , or this guy , but, He is this Guy :jesus:! :irate:






Just funning you!

[P3chrmd]

[quote]Overall, we as Americans or people not of Mexico or Central America cannot understand the importance of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Many protestants speak highly of ministers who helped them get saved. Our Lady of Guadalupe in her apparition led to the conversion of all of Mexico and Central America in mere years. Amazing! We should cherish her for the salvation of countless souls. [/quote]

Amen! The Holy Father did say, though, that OLOG was the patroness of ALL the Americas not just central! For that reason I think her apparition is a great blessing not just for Central American, but also for ALL the Americas! I have an OLOG decal on the back of my car. People always assume then that the car must be owned by a hispanic..wrong...any catholic! :-)

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='P3chrmd' date='Jun 13 2004, 12:45 AM']
Amen! The Holy Father did say, though, that OLOG was the patroness of ALL the Americas not just central! For that reason I think her apparition is a great blessing not just for Central American, but also for ALL the Americas! I have an OLOG decal on the back of my car. People always assume then that the car must be owned by a hispanic..wrong...any catholic! :-) [/quote]
Actually, the United States is dedicated to the Immaculate Conception But I'm sure we can have more than one patroness