tnavarro61 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) nah, never mind. Edited May 21, 2015 by tnavarro61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotpink Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 So in terms of high level scrutiny we have groups founded by a notorious criminal pervert, a group of avowed modernists, and a group who prefer the traditional Mass of the Catholic Church. One of these things is not like the other... Hmm... So no order that has had its superiors replaced and seminaries closed? Apparently the hierarchs are more concerned with the Traditional Latin Mass than heresy. You do realize that several men were allowd to leave their vows and that's like ridiculously serious, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 You do realize that several men were allowd to leave their vows and that's like ridiculously serious, right? Frankly given the nearly unprecedented situation the find themselves in, I think such a dispensation was more than called for as a matter of justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kateri89 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Just wanna reiterate that as far as I'm aware, none of us are privy to inside information either from the Franciscans of the Immaculate or the Vatican. Rorate Caeli and all of the other blog sites are also speculating. It's possible that perhaps the Vatican knows more than we do about this situation and it's entirely possible that this investigation has more to it than simply a religious order preferring the Traditional Latin Mass. If they were trying to prevent a schism like SSPX for instance, then this is entirely necessary. Besides if the Franciscans of the Immaculate are innocent of wrongdoing, so long as they remain obedient and faithful to the magisterium, God should see them through it. They wouldn't be Catholic if they weren't exposed to suffering at some point in time so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 SSPX are not in schism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Hmm... So no order that has had its superiors replaced and seminaries closed? Apparently the hierarchs are more concerned with the Traditional Latin Mass than heresy. Um the example par excellence is the JESUIT order which the pope suppressed entirely in the 18th century. The papal bull basically reads, "the Jesuits are worthless, I abolish them." However the charism was authentic and so the order reemerged when the time was right decades later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kateri89 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 SSPX are not in schism. Well let's put it this way, they're not on solid ground right now. But I don't want to get into that for the very same reason that I don't want to play guessing games with the Franciscans of the Immaculate. The point of my last post was that so many people are wagging a disapproving finger at the Vatican because they think that the Franciscans of the Immaculate are being bullied for upholding tradition. All I'm saying is we don't know the whole story and sitting here speculating and making assumptions is not only dangerous but sinful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 However we do know portions of the story, some of which show clearly unjust behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 nah, never mind. Whoa, you're back!?!? How's it going! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotpink Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 However we do know portions of the story, some of which show clearly unjust behaviour. That makes absolutely no sense. You can't know if something is truly unjust without knowing the whole story. Thats like a parent taking a screaming child into the grocer and having someone say that the parent did the wrong thing because one doesn't take screaming children into the grocer. Except they know nothing about the other circumstances....like if the mother has been in the hospital because her husband is dying, or if the child is autistic and can't help it or etc, etc. They have obously given some thought to this and not reacting wildly. Anyway, I was wrong before and I did see the CFR's not the FFI's but there are plenty of thriving traditonal orders. If the vatican was really rooting them all out it'd be totally different. Places that have been under scrutiny often have vast other problems....we just don't know them all. Since the order itself has asked people not to gossip and that they were listening...why are so many people so dramatic about this. I don't get it. If anoyine sais anything about Latin mass then people go nuts. It really bugs me. Honestly, if it wasn't an option I'd probably be closer to being a Catholic, but this constant drama and persecution complex is really to much. The mass iself isn't all bad, it's pretty nice, and most of the people are too, but good grief, the drama. It's like a few carry around the burn book from Mean Girls and have pasted the Pope on the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Since the order itself has asked people not to gossip and that they were listening...why are so many people so dramatic about this. I don't get it. If anoyine sais anything about Latin mass then people go nuts. It really bugs me. Honestly, if it wasn't an option I'd probably be closer to being a Catholic, but this constant drama and persecution complex is really to much. The mass iself isn't all bad, it's pretty nice, and most of the people are too, but good grief, the drama. It's like a few carry around the burn book from Mean Girls and have pasted the Pope on the front. The persecution complex is interesting. I will admit that certain groups are definitely very into seeing persecution everywhere. Other times, things go along swimmingly, but then something happens (or more often doesn't happen), and you start thinking that there is indeed a unified front against Traddies. But, you're last line is excellent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 That makes absolutely no sense. You can't know if something is truly unjust without knowing the whole story. Thats like a parent taking a screaming child into the grocer and having someone say that the parent did the wrong thing because one doesn't take screaming children into the grocer. Except they know nothing about the other circumstances....like if the mother has been in the hospital because her husband is dying, or if the child is autistic and can't help it or etc, etc. I have to disagree with that. Some actions are objectively immoral, and circumstances cannot change that assessment. I really have no interest in assessing silly hypotheticals though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotpink Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I have to disagree with that. Some actions are objectively immoral, and circumstances cannot change that assessment. I really have no interest in assessing silly hypotheticals though. I fail to see how this is objectivly immoral. This is not the vatican telling celebate men to go have sex. This is not them telling them to worship a false God. This is not forbidding them access to all masses. I haven't heard one thing yet where the vatican did something immoral. No commandments were broken. I fail to see why an investigation..and any of the information around it...suddenly makes the order beyond reproach. Yes, there are other heretical problems, but lets be real...they probably have been warned and aren't working with the Pope....but maybe not enough to be excommunicated publicly. My friend has a great example. Just because public schools are bad dosn't mean that catholic schools, charter schools and homeschools should have no rules whatsoever. It dosn't mean that the goverment shouldn't charge a investigate school with failing to educate children even if there are problems with children meeting standards in public school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I fail to see how this is objectivly immoral. This is not the vatican telling celebate men to go have sex. This is not them telling them to worship a false God. This is not forbidding them access to all masses. I haven't heard one thing yet where the vatican did something immoral. No commandments were broken. I fail to see why an investigation..and any of the information around it...suddenly makes the order beyond reproach. Yes, there are other heretical problems, but lets be real...they probably have been warned and aren't working with the Pope....but maybe not enough to be excommunicated publicly. My friend has a great example. Just because public schools are bad dosn't mean that catholic schools, charter schools and homeschools should have no rules whatsoever. It dosn't mean that the goverment shouldn't charge a investigate school with failing to educate children even if there are problems with children meeting standards in public school. What I actually said is that I find it clear that some aspects of this situation indicate objectively unjust actions. I said nothing about assessing the entire investigation. Nor do I think that would make much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Well let's put it this way, they're not on solid ground right now. But I don't want to get into that for the very same reason that I don't want to play guessing games with the Franciscans of the Immaculate. The point of my last post was that so many people are wagging a disapproving finger at the Vatican because they think that the Franciscans of the Immaculate are being bullied for upholding tradition. All I'm saying is we don't know the whole story and sitting here speculating and making assumptions is not only dangerous but sinful. Is Pope Francis on solid ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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