'Singleness'

[BarbTherese]

So, to clarify, you are saying that there are no duties, rights, or responsibilities of celibate laypersons above and beyond those incumbent upon all laypersons, unlike those in the married state. Is this correct?

 

There are two groups in the Laity.  They do share some duties while the duty of the married has additional duties brought about by their state in life including marital chastity, while the duty of the celibate layperson is celibate chastity and the implication of this state in life is always "celibate chastity for the sake of The Kingdom" of course.  If the celibate lay state or the single life should evolve as a quite selfish sort of state and way of life, it would be a complete abandonment of the duties of this state of life in the Laity.

[bardegaulois]

As the observance of chastity is a fulfillment of a commandment and an imperative of the moral law and as that chastity is celibate in all states save one, it looks like the answer to my question is yes.

So, to get around to your original assertion, how does the fact of a vow or vows, whether public or private, change or affect this state of life? And what would be the content of that vow or those vows?

[BarbTherese]

 

As the observance of chastity is a fulfillment of a commandment and an imperative of the moral law and as that chastity is celibate in all states save one, it looks like the answer to my question is yes.

So, to get around to your original assertion, how does the fact of a vow or vows, whether public or private, change or affect this state of life? And what would be the content of that vow or those vows?

​As the observance of chastity is a fulfillment of a commandment and an imperative of the moral law and as that chastity is celibate in all states save one, it looks like the answer to my question is yes.

Ok - great - we have settled that thank goodness!   I get the feeling I am being interrogated

So, to get around to your original assertion, how does the fact of a vow or vows, whether public or private, change or affect this state of life? And what would be the content of that vow or those vows?

 The content of any private vow is up to the individual and if treated with prudence and wisdom, a private vow or vows will only be made after seeking sound spiritual advice. - although not a necessity under Canon Law re private vows.

A private vow is a vow to God and must be fulfilled under the virtue of religion.  Most commonly a private vow or vows is a promise and vow to complete some act which is not asked by their state in life.  Only private vows can be made in the Laity - if one makes a public vow it transfers one to the Consecrated state.  Those in the Consecrated state can also make private vows.

Edited May 8, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

As I stated in this thread, there is no necessity for a layperson who feels called to the lay celibacy ('single life') to make any sort of private vow or vows. Some might do so, others not.  Also as I have stated previously, one would be most unwise even imprudent to decide that the lay chaste celibate state was their vocation in life without sound spiritual direction and on an ongoing basis.  It is not at all an easy state of life as some can presume - although for my own part, I presume it would be a totally different kind of vocation in different individuals.

I have been in the lay chaste celibate state now for over 30 years.  It has not been an easy ride in fact quite traumatic at times.  I am now almost 70yrs of age early next year and my income is regarded as below poverty and I face my more mature years alone and in uncertain health physically.  I work voluntary two days every week for emergency assistance to the poor. I have long 2 bus trips both there and back as well as a bit of a walk for me, not having a vehicle. I work voluntary for St Vinnies in my parish - I donate to four charities every month via direct debit as well as to any sudden occurring need, such as Nepal just now - and other calls of various kinds which come along from time to time.  I take in ironing one week each fortnight to support these financial calls.  I can and do however embrace my life in every way with total confidence and trust in Divine Providence for the future.  I can embrace it all with great Peace and with Joy -  He who has brought me this far, not without His cross, will not abandon me the rest of the way.

Edited May 8, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[bardegaulois]

Agreed that any vow should never be taken lightly. But does the fact of a vow--we'll say a private one, as you've shown that a public one definitely does--does a vow change or affect somehow the vocation of the vow-taker, or his various duties and obligations regarding God, the Church, or society?

[BarbTherese]

Agreed that any vow should never be taken lightly. But does the fact of a vow--we'll say a private one, as you've shown that a public one definitely does--does a vow change or affect somehow the vocation of the vow-taker, or his various duties and obligations regarding God, the Church, or society?

​I keep getting the feeling, bardegaulois, that you already know the answer and I am being interrogated to see if I know the answer.

Of course, a private vow will change the duty of the vow-taker as their state in life will henceforward include the content of the private vow as one's duty to God.  As for The Church, private vows must be fulfilled under the virtue of religion in addition to the ordinary duties of their state in life, while there probably will not be anything observable or overt - there might be if say someone made a private promise to recite the Rosary after daily Mass every single day of the week.  I can't see how a private vow would affect one's duties and obligations to society.

[BarbTherese]

Of course, if one made a private vow somehow related to one's obligations and duties to society, then their duty to society would include the content of that vow.  For example, as an act of penance, a private vow to say paint over all graffiti in their area and supply the paint for one month (with permission of the local Council of course)

Edited May 8, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[bardegaulois]

I'd like to thank you for answering these questions more briefly and directly. They've done much to clarify your thesis and premise, and, had perhaps you been so forthright earlier on, a lot of potential confusion in this thread could have been avoided. I thank you furthermore for allowing me to help you structure your argument.

I'll likely not be able to reply further this evening, but in order to clarify further: to a vowed layperson (whether married or under private vows), which takes priority: the lay state or the vows? Or is it different in each category?

And to leap ahead a little, what do you mean by a vocation being "official?"

[BarbTherese]

I'd like to thank you for answering these questions more briefly and directly. They've done much to clarify your thesis and premise, and, had perhaps you been so forthright earlier on, a lot of potential confusion in this thread could have been avoided. I thank you furthermore for allowing me to help you structure your argument.  Great! My fault!............So it was you who helped me structure my argument, was it?

 

I'll likely not be able to reply further this evening, but in order to clarify further: to a vowed layperson (whether married or under private vows), which takes priority: the lay state or the vows? Or is it different in each category? 

You might be a theologian - I aint!   Insofar as I am concerned, the duties of the state in life (with a private vow or vows) now include content of private vow or vows.  I am confident you know the answer to your own question.  If, perchance you do not, then research just as I would have to do to answer it.

And to leap ahead a little, what do you mean by a vocation being "official?"

No idea, dear sir/madam, without context......... 

 

Rather than keep on asking me questions to which you know the answers it seems, why not state what you know and the answers to your own questions and display your superior knowledge with all, rather than lead this lengthy merry dance through your questions and waste both our time?  Apologies for lack of structure, my assistant seems to be off on a coffee break!

​

Edited May 8, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I'm outta here!

[BarbTherese]

Before I leave - if I have any concerns or questions particularly if related to my own vocation and private vows in the Laity - I can direct them to my spiritual director.  He is a priest and religious.  I see Father regularly and am due again next week. He is also my confessor.  If he does not have the answers, he consults with our Vicar General (also Director of our Ministry Formation Program as well as Principal of our Catholic Theological College and lectures in Church Ministry).  He consulted with our VG re renewing and receiving my private vows at a Home Mass. Our VG consulted the Archbishop.  The Home Mass for the purpose was approved in due course and took place this year on the Solemnity of The Assumption, 15th August.  I now have affirming and encouraging comments from two Archbishops re my own vocation to private vows to the evangelical counsels in the Laity - and from one these Archbishop's put his comments in writing on diocesan letterhead.  There are also numerous letters we exchanged over a period of years. 

Not my call nor vocation to struggle over theological issues.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[bardegaulois]

Not my call nor vocation to struggle over theological issues.

​But that is exactly what you are doing here. If it isn't, then don't. You'll spare yourself a lot of stress and others a lot of needless confusion. You are a very blessed person to have received your specific call and, what is more, your specific spirituality through which you seem to understand this call. But understand that this might be very specific to you, and that, as Puellapaschalis indicated earlier in this conversation, you should not be upset that others do not see this as you do.

So this brings me back to Era Might's post very early on, defining vocation as "a way of being in the world, probably closer to what we would mean (in traditional terms) by 'charism' or 'spirituality,'" rather than a tidy canonical box one can tick off. Personality, life experience, and formation have all led to our very particular ways of being. Those of others, even if they be lay and celibate, are quite different from yours. Were I to write an essay and article on this, this existential element of vocation would be at the forefront of my consideration. Don't be dismissive of others because their ways of being, or experiencing, and of relating are different from yours.

Pax.

[BarbTherese]

Deleted post

 

 

Edited May 9, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

​But that is exactly what you are doing here. If it isn't, then don't. You'll spare yourself a lot of stress and others a lot of needless confusion. You are a very blessed person to have received your specific call and, what is more, your specific spirituality through which you seem to understand this call. But understand that this might be very specific to you, and that, as Puellapaschalis indicated earlier in this conversation, you should not be upset that others do not see this as you do.

So this brings me back to Era Might's post very early on, defining vocation as "a way of being in the world, probably closer to what we would mean (in traditional terms) by 'charism' or 'spirituality,'" rather than a tidy canonical box one can tick off. Personality, life experience, and formation have all led to our very particular ways of being. Those of others, even if they be lay and celibate, are quite different from yours. Were I to write an essay and article on this, this existential element of vocation would be at the forefront of my consideration. Don't be dismissive of others because their ways of being, or experiencing, and of relating are different from yours.

Pax.

​ I do not ask others to see things as I do.  I do uphold, however, what The Church has stated on the vocation to the Laity with no need to make private vows to embrace the vocation. This was the original subject of this thread.

Puellapaschalis was incorrect in his comments "To be honest, this doesn't sound as though you're discerning anything - it sounds as though you think others on Phatmass should "discern" and come to think as you do"and in a later post I corrected his statements, stating that my thoughts were what The Church was saying and this is what I was upholding and that I indeed was not discerning anything re vocation.

With Era Might, if you read the next post I totally agreed with him.  Also, if you read other posts I have made into Phatmass over the years, you will read that I do uphold every time that we are all unique, all different in personality, experiences and formation  - what I call "coming from a somewhere".  We are all a one off and absolutely unique, never to be repeated.

Don't be dismissive of others because their ways of being, or experiencing, and of relating are different from yours.

The above is a sweeping statement that is quite false.  I am definitely not, nor have ever been, dismissive of others because their way of being or experiencing and of relating are different from mine.  Never!  Rather in fact to the contrary.  I uphold and point out in posts, should the necessity arise, that we all are indeed different in so many ways and "Viva la Difference!".  I do disagree with a member if their statements are not in line with what The Church has to state - but my disagreement is on subject matter - never personal negative comments.

I will really thank you to refrain from posts that make statements that are negative personal comments.  I found your statement above deeply offensive probably because quite untrue.  Rather stick to the subject under discussion maintaining charitable exchanges - and mea culpa if may have offended.  Forum rules in this forum ask us to do so.

Finally, you stated in a previous post that all states in life in The Church other than marriage are called to celibate chastity HERE.  Married deacons are a 'ranking' in Holy Orders.  The ranks are bishop, priest, deacon (some of whom are married).  If a married deacon is widowed, then I have read somewhere that they are then called to celibate chastity.  Deacons in formation for the priesthood are called to the discipline of chaste celibacy.

Edited May 9, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I think that probably the call to the lay single state in chaste celibacy is not a common call.  In the Laity, the most common call I would think would be to marriage.

I cannot speak for others who may be embracing the lay single state as their vocation in life, but it seems to me that very likely with such a call something specific would be included in the call, some sort of apostolate to serve in some special manner.  Perhaps to serve The Church in some important role or specific role, perhaps to serve in society and temporal life in some particular career path.  There may be other quite unique calls as well.  No matter what such a unique call might be, it nevertheless falls under the umbrella as it were of "The Vocation and Mission of The Laity" as previously quoted and in celibate chastity.  Some might be called to serve their own families/neighbours in some sort of need - or even quite simply (though not easy) to strive to live live a Gospel life in all circumstances in life and in celibate chastity as a quite ordinary lay person under the umbrella of the Church Document "Vocation and Mission of The Laity".

I would stress yet again, that if God has generously gifted one with the necessary qualities for Holy Orders and/or consecrated life then I think that they are obliged even in thankfulness to God to discern if they are indeed called to one of these, or both, very important vital vocations in The Church.