oremus1 Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 I'm going to second beatitude's comment (and my own earlier expression of the feeling that the OP was dishonest) that this thread seems to have been made in bad faith. It is coming across as a way to promote one form of the Office/Mass over another, through the deceptive use of questioning to create the false impression that no agenda is being pushed. The VS isn't the place to do this. I'm not even sure the Debate Table is. We used to have a rule about "Catholic versus Catholic" arguing on Phatmass, but since the upgrade, I can't find any rules. And also since the upgrade, it seems like trads have gotten a lot more aggressive on Phatmass. Which I say as a trad myself, who nonetheless thinks the not-so-subtle insinuations of NO inferiority need to stop. And dUSt: The formatting in posts has gone wonky. Actually, you will find on this thread I have tried to STOP people going off topic and talking about the MAss. Personally I thnk that people like you are accusing me of being deceptive and other evil lies because you feel guilty. You may be content to pray Novus Ordo " evening prayer" once a day, but then you hear people are praying the EF Office of 150 psalms a week in LAtin and you feel bad. So you try to take it out on me. that is unfair. The issue is NOT "the EF is automatically superior to the OF because it is older and traditional" The issue would easily have been "is it better to pray 150 psalms in a week or just one or two" "is it better to pray in Latin or English"The main issue is, does one derive any merit from making the significant sacrifice and struggle of devoting many hours to praying many psalms every day in the language of the church, compared to doing whatever is convenient and easy?I think that your heart is saying yes, even though your head is saying no, and you want to blame me for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Paul Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I hope I did not cause you any harm Oremus1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Personally I thnk that people like you are accusing me of being deceptive and other evil lies because you feel guilty. You may be content to pray Novus Ordo " evening prayer" once a day, but then you hear people are praying the EF Office of 150 psalms a week in LAtin and you feel bad. So you try to take it out on me. that is unfair. I guess what comes to mind is: are Visitation nuns less holy because their order was founded to be particularly more accommodating and less penitential? Were lay sisters less holy - they who typically never prayed the office at all, and instead just prayed rosaries? If you, personally, are under vows - you need to address this with a spiritual director. If you are not, it is no one else's business. Sometimes being holy means appearing less holy (and thus becoming humble). You should still talk to a spiritual director (and maybe in your case one who's not a traddy, but still orthodox). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Actually, you will find on this thread I have tried to STOP people going off topic and talking about the MAss. Personally I thnk that people like you are accusing me of being deceptive and other evil lies because you feel guilty. You may be content to pray Novus Ordo " evening prayer" once a day, but then you hear people are praying the EF Office of 150 psalms a week in LAtin and you feel bad. So you try to take it out on me. that is unfair. The issue is NOT "the EF is automatically superior to the OF because it is older and traditional" The issue would easily have been "is it better to pray 150 psalms in a week or just one or two" "is it better to pray in Latin or English"The main issue is, does one derive any merit from making the significant sacrifice and struggle of devoting many hours to praying many psalms every day in the language of the church, compared to doing whatever is convenient and easy?I think that your heart is saying yes, even though your head is saying no, and you want to blame me for it I don't feel guilty, but even if I did, I don't think it's appropriate for you to speculate about my internal states. I have implied that your OP, and successive posts, seem deceptive, not based upon whatever is going on inside your head, but based upon the language that you have publicly used. Yes, you have tried to stop people talking about the Mass. That doesn't change the fact that you seem to be trying to push people, through "questioning", to the conclusion that the OF is somehow less holy and inferior. If "the issue would easily have been 'is it better to pray 150 psalms in a week or just one or two' [or] 'is it better to pray in Latin or English'", you could have just asked that. But you didn't. The issue here could be that you simply are not communicating your intentions clearly, so they're coming off in a way you don't intend. But you keep coming back for more, and the impression of ulterior motive just gets worse each time you do. So my recommendation would be to either stop coming back (unlikely), or to start being very careful to word things in the way you mean them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 As a matter of fact, that is happening in Reform synagogues. The most recent edition of the prayerbook they use is bilingual and they are slowly going back to more traditional modes. The big problem is that several entire generations are completely ignorant of tradition. as one rabbi said to me, "We threw the baby out with the bath water". Have you read Catherine Madsen's article in Tikkun called "Kitsch and Liturgy"? I think you'd really like. It's available at her website, here: http://catherinemadsen.com/Kitsch-And-Liturgy.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Actually, you will find on this thread I have tried to STOP people going off topic and talking about the MAss. Personally I thnk that people like you are accusing me of being deceptive and other evil lies because you feel guilty. You may be content to pray Novus Ordo " evening prayer" once a day, but then you hear people are praying the EF Office of 150 psalms a week in LAtin and you feel bad. So you try to take it out on me. that is unfair. ...I think that your heart is saying yes, even though your head is saying no, and you want to blame me for it I don't feel guilty about my prayer life. Guilt is just misplaced pride that you are not as wonderful as you thought you were. I do feel sorry I am not closer to God, but I know that he can draw me through any means, and that the means he chooses might not be the means I would pick. I do feel a bit suspicious about you and your intentions, especially as you joined this forum with a story about having to leave your traditional parish due to abuse by a priest, a story that was quite unusual in its details. Not long after, another poster joined with the exact same story and a similar username to yours (oratefrates), only he said he was a male discerning priesthood/religious life and you say you are a female candidate for CV. Both of you have similar writing styles and extremely similar preoccupations - traditionalism, status and prestige in the church, what people are doing wrong in their prayer lives, etc. I did comment on this in another thread and got no reply. Now this may all be one enormous coincidence, but to my mind that's a bit of a stretch, especially as only one of you is ever active at a time. I have a sharp nose for fishiness, but it's not infallible. If you are who you say you are, I apologise. However, if you are genuine, you need to do other people the courtesy of accepting that they are genuine too, rather than assuming that people feel like you on prayer and just don't want to admit it. Also, making an argument like "Your heart is saying yes, even though your head is saying no" only makes it look even more like you're here to promote one form of worship over another, or perhaps just to create division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) Have you read Catherine Madsen's article in Tikkun called "Kitsch and Liturgy"? I think you'd really like. It's available at her website, here: http://catherinemadsen.com/Kitsch-And-Liturgy.html Thanks for the link; so far I've only had a few moments to scan it. [It's Israel's Independence Day] But I would say that the human soul seems to need "mystery". Someone [not me!] noted that the sculptures of the Etruscans had their gods very stylized, with a highly enigmatic smile -- most definitely "otherworldly", while the later Greeks, and the Romans, now grounded solidly in common sense and everyday reality, made their gods look just like people really did -- and could be easily confused with ordinary folks. The sense of the "numinous" was lost, and that sense is very important in all religion. Completely OT, but could you tell me what the meaning of those two icons over my avatar are? [the cup and saucer, champagne glass.] Edited April 23, 2015 by Antigonos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) I am amazed that this thread (some posts only) has been allowed to continue in VS Edited April 23, 2015 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egeria Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) The main issue is, does one derive any merit from making the significant sacrifice and struggle of devoting many hours to praying many psalms every day in the language of the church, compared to doing whatever is convenient and easy? You pray in order to gain merit? Hearing things like this makes me think the Protestant reformers had a point after all, although to the best of my knowledge this is not current Catholic teaching (I am open to correction on that). But your whole attitude strikes me as decidedly pagan rather than Christian, which does make me wonder whether you are who you say you are... Edited April 23, 2015 by Egeria Typo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Prayer for me is to give praise and thanks to God and to offer intercessory prayer. For me it is not at all about the length of any prayer or prayers - it is to pray with an awareness of to whom I am praying - and this is a decidedly amesome and astounding matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 You pray in order to gain merit? Hearing things like this makes me think the Protestant reformers had a point after all, although to the best of my knowledge this is not current Catholic teaching (I am open to correction on that). But your whole attitude strikes me as decidedly pagan rather than Christian, which does make me wonder whether you are who you say you are... "Prayer is nothing more than an intimate conversation between friends." - St Teresa of Avila. When she was declared a Doctor of the Church, in the highest commendation that the Vatican could give to her teaching and work, she became known as the Doctor of Prayer. St Therese of Lisieux, another Carmelite nun and Doctor of the Church, had this to say: "I have not the courage to force myself to seek beautiful prayers in books; not knowing which to choose I act as children do who cannot read; I say quite simply to the good God what I want to tell Him, and He always understands me." I think between them they say everything we need to know on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) When I go about my day, I am with my friend. When I go to formal prayer, I am conscious of just Who my Friend really is. Prayer I think is very personal and it will vary from person to person. Edited April 23, 2015 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 This thread is why we can't have nice things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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