NadaTeTurbe Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 You know, it's like patriotism. You can show you love your country by putting the flag everywhere, singing the anthem all the time, hand on the heart, etc... or you can feel you love your country by just loving it, paying your taxes, learning about it, etc... I doesn't mean you can't do both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 You know, it's like patriotism. You can show you love your country by putting the flag everywhere, singing the anthem all the time, hand on the heart, etc... or you can feel you love your country by just loving it, paying your taxes, learning about it, etc... I doesn't mean you can't do both. Sorry you lost me on the analogy there Lets say you feel reference for Jesus in the Mass If the Mass has lots of outward reverence too that brings a certain joy? Still trying to understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Not, because in this case, I focus on the physical action (exterior reverence), and not on the spiritual action (the body of christ present in the bread). I would say that I like a liturgy who is uncluttered (french word : épuré). Also, I feel lot of outward reverence like manipulation of my mind, but this is really personnal. I don't like to feel like in a theatre with actor. I'm a not in a theatre, I am at the mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oremus1 Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 No ? I feel reverence at the mass. I don't think I need to show it to the rest of the word with mantilla, veil, very long kneeling, etc... Usually, at the mass, I try to not "show" myself. I don't want to be distinguished because of my attitude. (well, in my parish i am an altar server, so I don't have the choice in the attitude !). But I feel that in my case focusing in exterior attitude (showing reference) distract me from interior attitude (feeling reverence.) I don't know if I'm clear. But then, the culture is different. American are very focused on exterior , it's less the case in France. Go on the Chartres Pilgrimage!! http://ndchretiente.free.fr/photos10.php?show_heading=list&dir=photos&page_num=1&nocol=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I know the Chartres Pilgrimage, and don't feel the need to go. Let alone the act that I can't walk more than one hour on a good day, I have hear about it (my ex SD was a chaplain here), and I don't think I would be welcome on it for many reason (I already don't feel confortable with mainstream catholic because I don't have the same culture than them, let alone traditionalist.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) My experience has been very different I guess... For me Traditional Latin Mass feels the least theatrical because I get a clear sense the priest is talking to God - it helps that he is facing away, like leading us in prayer I also relate the spiritual and physical more directly. When I'm at a liturgy that is more casual exteriorly I can't concentrate on the spiritual - I can try but the physical aspect upsets me because it doesn't match what I feel in my heart. I would say though Jesus' Presence is physical, not just spiritual, - like as we know He is physically there.. There is no longer any bread. Since Jesus is there physically, I relate that to the physical reverence.. My favourite liturgies are actually the most ornate ones (like Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest though I like all Traditional Latin Mass) because I'm picturing Jesus physically in front of me and then see all the things in the liturgy for Him. Edited April 21, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Well, we are the contrary Me, I'm really easily distracted. Add ton of flower, song, incense, haute couture chasuble, and I can only see the flower, the song, the incense, and the haute couture chasuble, and not Jesus. that's what for praying, in my home, I only take one image and one candle. More, and I'm lost. the ICRSP is in my city (my bishop choose them because they accepted to concelebrate the christmal mass, and they have not the reputation to spend their time criticizing the bishop or the novus ordo). Two years ago, a friend explain to me how muche the EF is great, how much it is better than the OF, how much I will feel illuminated by the light of the EF, and, and, and, etc... I went once. I felt nothing but distraction, and boredom. I said "Okay, it's new, you can get used to it", so I went, I think 5 or 6 times more, but it never changed, and my parish needed me. My friend was very sad (I love St Francis of Sales. I'm sure she thought to recruit me for the women branch of the ICRSP.)Btw, this friend is really a saint women. She's a traditionnalist, love latin mass, but felt the call to a little benedicine monastery that sing in french, use the OF, wear a modified habit, and have some apostolate. She is now a postulante in this monastery. God works in mysterious way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oremus1 Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 can we please keep to the topic of the Divine Office? Not OF vs EF mass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) I'm going to second beatitude's comment (and my own earlier expression of the feeling that the OP was dishonest) that this thread seems to have been made in bad faith. It is coming across as a way to promote one form of the Office/Mass over another, through the deceptive use of questioning to create the false impression that no agenda is being pushed. The VS isn't the place to do this. I'm not even sure the Debate Table is. We used to have a rule about "Catholic versus Catholic" arguing on Phatmass, but since the upgrade, I can't find any rules. And also since the upgrade, it seems like trads have gotten a lot more aggressive on Phatmass. Which I say as a trad myself, who nonetheless thinks the not-so-subtle insinuations of NO inferiority need to stop. And dUSt: The formatting in posts has gone wonky. Edited April 22, 2015 by Gabriela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 My mother never learned Hebrew. She used a bilingual prayerbook and read the English if she was with a congregation that was praying in Hebrew. Late in life she joined a Reform congregation which prayed in English and complained it "didn't sound Jewish". What she meant was that it lacked the traditional Jewish/cantorial melodies that she'd heard [but not really understood] all her life. I got her some records of the great cantors. I pray in Hebrew, because I speak it. I find there are nuances which don't translate well to English, and I suppose Latin also has the same thing. One advantage of the Latin Mass was that a Catholic could go into a church anywhere in the world, and the Mass would be the same -- but, in the past, Latin was more commonly taught and so people understood it more. There's a wonderful Hassidic story about an illiterate workman who enters a yeshiva synagogue during the afternoon service. The students are all praying fervently with their prayerbooks. The workman says, "God, You know I can't read, and I don't know the prayers by heart. But what I can do, and I will, is recite the letters of the alphabet, which I do know, in lieu of the formal prayers". The students hear this fellow reciting "A, B, C" and so on and laugh at him. The great Hassidic rebbe, the Baal Shem Tov, reproved them angrily: "The Holy One, Blessed Be He, hears this man's every syllable while he ignores you, because this man has sincere intention while you are only showing off your erudition". IMHO, in religion, it's the intention that counts, not the minuitiae such as the depth of the genuflection, or the number of candles lit, or the language one prays in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 My mother never learned Hebrew. She used a bilingual prayerbook and read the English if she was with a congregation that was praying in Hebrew. Late in life she joined a Reform congregation which prayed in English and complained it "didn't sound Jewish". What she meant was that it lacked the traditional Jewish/cantorial melodies that she'd heard [but not really understood] all her life. I got her some records of the great cantors. I pray in Hebrew, because I speak it. I find there are nuances which don't translate well to English, and I suppose Latin also has the same thing. One advantage of the Latin Mass was that a Catholic could go into a church anywhere in the world, and the Mass would be the same -- but, in the past, Latin was more commonly taught and so people understood it more. This is why I originally was drawn to Latin. I learned to pray in Hebrew, so it seemed "mundane" to me to pray in the vernacular. I wanted a separation between the language of prayer and the language of coffee-talk. The content is different, so why not also the form? Anyway, yeah, I totally get where your mother's coming from. But I think you make an interesting point: If for her it wasn't the language, but the cantoring, I think that makes sense, too. A lot of the parishes around me are now taking pains to "bring back the antiphons", and the priests are beginning to chant their prayers, even at NO Masses. So the NOs near me are beginning to sound and look a lot more like EF Masses, even though they're still in English. I rather like the new developments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) As a matter of fact, that is happening in Reform synagogues. The most recent edition of the prayerbook they use is bilingual and they are slowly going back to more traditional modes. The big problem is that several entire generations are completely ignorant of tradition. as one rabbi said to me, "We threw the baby out with the bath water". Edited April 22, 2015 by Antigonos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 This is why I originally was drawn to Latin. I learned to pray in Hebrew, so it seemed "mundane" to me to pray in the vernacular. I wanted a separation between the language of prayer and the language of coffee-talk. The content is different, so why not also the form? Anyway, yeah, I totally get where your mother's coming from. But I think you make an interesting point: If for her it wasn't the language, but the cantoring, I think that makes sense, too. A lot of the parishes around me are now taking pains to "bring back the antiphons", and the priests are beginning to chant their prayers, even at NO Masses. So the NOs near me are beginning to sound and look a lot more like EF Masses, even though they're still in English. I rather like the new developments! I like too when there's a separation between the sacred and 'mundane' in terms of music, language, at least style... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Slighty off-topic, but, Antigonos, was this story in one book by Isaac Bashelvis Singer (if you know him) ? I'm sure I've read it in one of his book but can't remember wich one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) Slighty off-topic, but, Antigonos, was this story in one book by Isaac Bashelvis Singer (if you know him) ? I'm sure I've read it in one of his book but can't remember wich one... I'm a big fan of Singer, but the story, I think, came from a collection of Hassidic tales by Elie Wiesel, called "Souls on Fire". I have, however, read several variations on it in books about the Hassidic movement and the Baal Shem Tov, one of its originators in the 18th century. Edited April 22, 2015 by Antigonos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts