OF vs EF Divine Office?

[Maggyie]

​People on this thread should not feel bad.

This thread was for people obliged in some way to say the Office, as to which one they use

It was more that I felt bad to switch to the OF office - because it is shorter and easier and prime is suppressed. i am pretty sure all of the traddys will say I am a modernist if I do.

I might say the OF office for a couple of days to try it out

You must understand, someone who would call you a modernist for such a thing is close to heresy themselves! Don't let such people interfere in your prayer life. 

[beatitude]

I just want to say here that as a member of secular institute I am obliged to pray just one of the Hours each day. (We can pray more if we want to, but this is our constitutional requirement for the Divine Office.) For me that's Vespers. I pray then because the evening is the best time I have to focus on the Office - I'm not likely to be disturbed, it can flow into my other devotions, and I love the Magnificat. It has profound and special meaning for me. Other members of my institute pray the whole of the Divine Office (especially the retired women). We have all made the choice that is best for our current circumstance. No one is being 'holier' than any other in her decision. We have to remember that prayer is not so much about what we give to God, but what God gives to us - and he does not need Latin or a longer Office to make himself known, he does not need any specific method, all he needs is our humility and trust and our willingness to come to him. And people come by many different roads. That's OK.

When I was working in a college for young adults with Down's Syndrome, a student asked me who Jesus was. I paused, racking my brains for a way to explain it in a way that a young man with severe intellectual disabilities would understand. While I was thinking, another student, this one from a Catholic home, turned round from where he was washing up and said simply, "He's my friend." Then he calmly went back to washing the plates. He's never prayed the Office in his life, yet that day he showed to me that he has a better grasp on the Gospel than I have. He wants Christ and that is all anyone ever needs to pray.

Be very wary of choosing a way of prayer just because of what others might think of you if you pray differently. Jesus warned about Pharisees standing up on the street corners and declaiming aloud in order to attract attention over their great holiness. He instructed us to pray in "the secret place" - that could be the privacy of our room, or just the cloister of our own hearts. Once we're there, who is to know what breviary we're using and why? And what does it matter?

[puellapaschalis]

Also, keep in mind that the EF is just that--EXTRAORDINARY.  If the Church thought it was "more meritorious," don't you think that would be the ORDINARY form?

​This is not the sense in which the Church currently uses the words 'Ordinary' and 'Extraordinary' in the context of the different forms of Mass in the Roman Rite (by extension we can apply them to the Office too). It is Extraordinary in the sense it is particular, unusual, special, and valued, not least because of its greater antiquity than the forms that came into use late in the 20thC. It is currently used by a (significant, perhaps?) minority. God willing that will not last and the older forms will be more and more widespread. The terms are descriptive, not prescriptive.

For the record: I consider myself a Trad(dy) and I don't have an opinion on the worth of an individual solely based upon his preference for one form or the other, let alone which form he is more practically able to use based on his commitments and so on (i.e. as a consequence of things outside of his own control).

Outside of that disclaimer: I agree with the OP that the suppression of Prime in particular was strange. Its length (nice and short) and relative stability (not very many changing parts each day) made it ideal for busy people who wanted to join in the Office before their work began.

[truthfinder]

​People on this thread should not feel bad.

This thread was for people obliged in some way to say the Office, as to which one they use

It was more that I felt bad to switch to the OF office - because it is shorter and easier and prime is suppressed. i am pretty sure all of the traddys will say I am a modernist if I do.

I might say the OF office for a couple of days to try it out

​As a traddy myself, I'd have very choice words for anyone who went on a McBreviary rant (which would get me banned here for a couple days at least).  I think fidelity to the prayer (as one not obligated to pray it), is the most important.  

Thinking of what Sr. MC said about recto-tono vs. fully sung, I've sometimes wondered to myself if I could be a trad Benny because they sing it all, or a trad-Carmelite because it's recto.  So much singing vs. so little singing.  Also the time thing, a priest who enunciates every syllable of the EF mass is just as annoying as one who flies through and leaves you lost (I've actually experience the former on more occasions than the latter).  I'm not entirely sure there's anything wrong with prayers said quickly, though sincerely - but obviously, I'm not a nun.

[The Historian]

Well, for example, an apostolic religious who is doing her/his ministry--such as teaching, nursing, whatever--under obedience, is doing something more "important" than praying formal prayers, since that is what they are SUPPOSED to be doing.

Our first obligation is to God.  Our second obligation is to our neighbour.  We fulfil our obligation to God in the sacred liturgy - whether Mass or the Divine Office.  For clerics and religious, it's their job to offer the public worship of the Church.  There is no more important thing than this.  The Divine Office isn't just a "formal" prayer.  It is corporate prayer of the Church united with Christ.  No act of contemplation, no rosary, no good work will ever rival it.  It is on a whole different level.

This wouldn't really be a problem, in my view, if the Church would just dispense seculars and actives from their obligation to the Office.  Just say Lauds, Vespers and Compline and everyone will be happy and the liturgy won't be butchered to fit into their time tables.​

[oremus1]

Ok so in your collective opinions, if someone was obliged to say some of the Office, is it better to:

a) say / chant Lauds, Vespers and Compline in a reverent way in Latin

b) say the entirety of the OF office

The other thing is, many laypeople do not understand the vows. some were scandalised when I said I prayed the same number of rosaries as a normal person.

[The Historian]

Ok so in your collective opinions, if someone was obliged to say some of the Office, is it better to:

a) say / chant Lauds, Vespers and Compline in a reverent way in Latin

b) say the entirety of the OF office

The other thing is, many laypeople do not understand the vows. some were scandalised when I said I prayed the same number of rosaries as a normal person.

​I am firmly of the opinion that the Extraordinary Form is the superior liturgical expression of the Latin Church.  But you can't quantify liturgy like this.  Yes, it is always preferable for the liturgy to be sung.  But you can only compare it hour by hour.

[Swami Mommy]

The Historian wrote:  Our first obligation is to God.  Our second obligation is to our neighbour.  We fulfil our obligation to God in the sacred liturgy - whether Mass or the Divine Office.  For clerics and religious, it's their job to offer the public worship of the Church.  There is no more important thing than this.  The Divine Office isn't just a "formal" prayer.  It is corporate prayer of the Church united with Christ.  No act of contemplation, no rosary, no good work will ever rival it.  It is on a whole different level.
 

I am not a Catholic, so please excuse me if my perspective is somewhat different than yours.  In my own spiritual journey, I have learned that while my first obligation is to God, He is not separate from my neighbor nor from any other thing around me, and so therefore to seek and honor God first is to seek and find His presence in all things, not just in the formal rituals established by an institutional Church.  Reciting a rote prayer, whether the long or the short version, over serving and loving God in my fellow man and through the faithful and wholehearted execution of my daily activities, means nothing if I pray out of a sense of obligation to ritualized form over the spirit it is meant to inspire.  Someone mentioned that reciting the Divine Office was originally taken from a Jewish tradition of sanctifying the day through regular remembrance of God, which I think is a lovely way to bring one's attention back to the heart of gratitude and devotion.  So, if I WERE to repeat the Divine Office, I personally would choose that version which does not lead me to pray from a stance of rigid adherence to the 'politically correct way', but which, rather, inspires me to feel blessed by and grateful for the opportunity to kneel to God within.  The spirit of the law will always be more important to me than the letter of the law.  I seriously doubt that God as Love cares which form of the Divine Office is used (or any other form of prayer for that matter), as long as we keep our hearts soft and open with love for Him in all we do.

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

For a really good history of the development of the Divine Office in the Church read Fr. Taft's: The Liturgy of the Hours in the East and West.
It really makes one see how the Divine Office has changed and developed century by century. http://www.amazon.com/The-Liturgy-Hours-East-West/dp/0814614051

[passerby]

Personally I don't care whether a person says the EF or the OF, but what bothers me is when someone makes a judgement about saying one or the other. In this case, saying things like about saying the OF being against one's conscience or the EF being superior. That's not for us to decide. The Church has laid out what is required (for religious, those who have made promises, etc) and what is acceptable. It's beautiful that the Church has embraced both. Individual preference is one thing but thinking somehow that one is more meritorious than another is, I think, dangerous. God doesn't answer us because of what we may do or say or sing (in whatever language) - He owes us nothing. If our goodness was determined by some formula, then everyone should be saying BOTH the EF and OF! To think that somehow someone is better or holier because they say longer and more difficult prayers is ridiculous. 

Just my 2 cents,

B

[truthfinder]

And this is another reason why I support the reintroduction of "lay sister". 

[The Historian]

Personally I don't care whether a person says the EF or the OF, but what bothers me is when someone makes a judgement about saying one or the other. In this case, saying things like about saying the OF being against one's conscience or the EF being superior. That's not for us to decide. The Church has laid out what is required (for religious, those who have made promises, etc) and what is acceptable. It's beautiful that the Church has embraced both. Individual preference is one thing but thinking somehow that one is more meritorious than another is, I think, dangerous. God doesn't answer us because of what we may do or say or sing (in whatever language) - He owes us nothing. If our goodness was determined by some formula, then everyone should be saying BOTH the EF and OF! To think that somehow someone is better or holier because they say longer and more difficult prayers is ridiculous. 

Just my 2 cents,

B

​The spiritual merit of both forms is the same, as it's the same prayer.  Just like the spiritual merit of both the Divine Liturgy and the Holy Mass are the same, because they're the same thing.  But the liturgy, being the man-made ritual, is certainly not above criticism.  It serves to predispose us to better participate in the prayer of Christ.  The fact is that the Church doesn't always do the liturgy in the best way and we are most certainly free to criticise it and review it.  I mean, if the Church's liturgical expression was always perfect then why did we submit it to so many reforms?

[truthfinder]

​The spiritual merit of both forms is the same, as it's the same prayer.  Just like the spiritual merit of both the Divine Liturgy and the Holy Mass are the same, because they're the same thing.  But the liturgy, being the man-made ritual, is certainly not above criticism.  It serves to predispose us to better participate in the prayer of Christ.  The fact is that the Church doesn't always do the liturgy in the best way and we are most certainly free to criticise it and review it.  I mean, if the Church's liturgical expression was always perfect then why did we submit it to so many reforms?

​I'd be careful how you tread there.  I've heard several EF sermons on how the EF liturgy comes in some way through God (it was actually a compelling argument), and other theologians, Scott Hanh in particular comes to mind, argues that a good part of the liturgical actions (they're writing about the OF) come from biblical sources. I think if we want to continue this conversation, it would be best to move it over to the debate board - it really doesn't belong to vocations, imho. 

[Gabriela]

​I'd be careful how you tread there.  I've heard several EF sermons on how the EF liturgy comes in some way through God (it was actually a compelling argument), and other theologians, Scott Hanh in particular comes to mind, argues that a good part of the liturgical actions (they're writing about the OF) come from biblical sources. I think if we want to continue this conversation, it would be best to move it over to the debate board - it really doesn't belong to vocations, imho. 

​I second that idea. When you get to the Debate Table, remember the "Catholic versus Catholic" rule.

[Gabriela]

Ok so in your collective opinions, if someone was obliged to say some of the Office, is it better to:

a) say / chant Lauds, Vespers and Compline in a reverent way in Latin

b) say the entirety of the OF office

The other thing is, many laypeople do not understand the vows. some were scandalised when I said I prayed the same number of rosaries as a normal person.

​You're completely missing the point. There is no "better". There is only what is BEST FOR YOU, which is to try different things, see what you can actually stick to and what brings you grace, and do that.

If people criticize it, tell 'em to get lost. (And, you know, pray for them and stuff. )

Edited April 20, 2015 by Gabriela