Ice_nine Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I've often heard it said that if you (or me, or joe) was the only person that needed redemption Christ would have still suffered His passion and death. Is there a theological/biblical/philosophical reasoning behind this? It always seemed like sort of a unsubstantiated claim, but I don't know figure I'd pose the question to those who might know. Maybe it belongs in the Q&A board but I don't think that subphorum gets as much traffic so . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I believe Christ would still need to redeem the person, if the person sinned against God. Sin is measured by the one sinned against. Sinning against an infinite being would leave a infinite dept to be paid that a finite being could never pay. Christ would still need to become man so He could take the persons place and repay the infinite dept. Would He still need die? I'm not sure but many Saints have taught that only one drop of blood could have redeemed the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 many Saints have taught that only one drop of blood could have redeemed the world. Really? Cuz that would seem to break with the parallel between Christ's sacrifice and the temple sacrifices... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Really? Cuz that would seem to break with the parallel between Christ's sacrifice and the temple sacrifices... I was just thinking aloud in relation to the subject of the thread. I do believe it was necessary that Christ laid down His life for us. But I have seen where Saints have mad a statement like that. It does not necessarily conclude that they thought it was unnecessary for Christ to also lay down His life, only that one drop of blood shed in the Passion was sufficient to redeem the whole world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragon Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Really? Cuz that would seem to break with the parallel between Christ's sacrifice and the temple sacrifices... Learning about the theology of temple sacrifice in Ancient Judaism really made me re-assess my idea of atonement theology. I didn't really think ,much of penal substitution prior to that (I was more a 'Christ's entering into human suffering' incarnational kind of guy). I guess I now view the crucifixion as a bit of both. Anyway, I second KoC's comment that even one drop would have been enough. I heard a priest explain that the brutality Christ chose to subject Himself to is an example of the extravagance of His love for humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted April 6, 2015 Author Share Posted April 6, 2015 Well, God didn't need to die at all to save us. Since He ultimately sets the terms and conditions He could have made it so that He redeemed u by snapping His fingers and/or foregoing the incarnation at all, right? But I guess my question centers around, if God did need to suffer in some way, and only one person needed to be saved or only person would be saved, would God still go through all that He did for that one person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Well, God didn't need to die at all to save us. Since He ultimately sets the terms and conditions He could have made it so that He redeemed u by snapping His fingers and/or foregoing the incarnation at all, right? But I guess my question centers around, if God did need to suffer in some way, and only one person needed to be saved or only person would be saved, would God still go through all that He did for that one person? I think the answer to this is found in Jesus' own words: "What do you think? If a shepherd has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray." Christ loves each one of us as if there were only one of us, deeply and personally, so all the effort he would make for the ninety-nine he is also prepared to make for just one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I cannot recall the specific book in the Bible, but remember that one where he is asking God if he would spare the city just for the sane of a hundred, or ten, or even one righteous person? Same idea I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Genesis 18, referring to Sodom. [21] I will go down and see whether they have done according to the cry that is come to me: or whether it be not so, that I may know. [22] And they turned themselves from thence, and went their way to Sodom: but Abraham as yet stood before the Lord. [23] And drawing nigh he said: Wilt thou destroy the just with the wicked? [24] If there be fifty just men in the city, shall they perish withal? and wilt thou not spare that place for the sake of the fifty just, if they be therein? [25] Far be it from thee to do this thing, and to slay the just with the wicked, and for the just to be in like case as the wicked, this is not beseeming thee: thou who judgest all the earth, wilt not make this judgment. [21] I will go down: The Lord here accommodates his discourse to the way of speaking and acting amongst men; for he knoweth all things, and needeth not to go anywhere for information. Note here, that two of the three angels went away immediately for Sodom; whilst the third, who represented the Lord, remained with Abraham. [26] And the Lord said to him: If I find in Sodom fifty just within the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake. [27] And Abraham answered, and said: Seeing I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord, whereas I am dust and ashes. [28] What if there be five less than fifty just persons? wilt thou for five and forty destroy the whole city? And he said: I will not destroy it, if I find five and forty. [29]And again he said to him: But if forty be found there, what wilt thou do? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of forty. [30] Lord, saith he, be not angry, I beseech thee, if I speak: What if thirty shall be found there? He answered: I will not do it, if I find thirty there. [31] Seeing, saith he, I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord. What if twenty be found there? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty. [32] I beseech thee, saith he, be not angry, Lord, if I speak yet once more: What if ten should be found there? And he said: I will not destroy it for the sake of ten. [33] And the Lord departed, after he had left speaking to Abraham: and Abraham returned to his place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Genesis 18, referring to Sodom. [21] I will go down and see whether they have done according to the cry that is come to me: or whether it be not so, that I may know. [22] And they turned themselves from thence, and went their way to Sodom: but Abraham as yet stood before the Lord. [23] And drawing nigh he said: Wilt thou destroy the just with the wicked? [24] If there be fifty just men in the city, shall they perish withal? and wilt thou not spare that place for the sake of the fifty just, if they be therein? [25] Far be it from thee to do this thing, and to slay the just with the wicked, and for the just to be in like case as the wicked, this is not beseeming thee: thou who judgest all the earth, wilt not make this judgment. [21] I will go down: The Lord here accommodates his discourse to the way of speaking and acting amongst men; for he knoweth all things, and needeth not to go anywhere for information. Note here, that two of the three angels went away immediately for Sodom; whilst the third, who represented the Lord, remained with Abraham. [26] And the Lord said to him: If I find in Sodom fifty just within the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake. [27] And Abraham answered, and said: Seeing I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord, whereas I am dust and ashes. [28] What if there be five less than fifty just persons? wilt thou for five and forty destroy the whole city? And he said: I will not destroy it, if I find five and forty. [29]And again he said to him: But if forty be found there, what wilt thou do? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of forty. [30] Lord, saith he, be not angry, I beseech thee, if I speak: What if thirty shall be found there? He answered: I will not do it, if I find thirty there. [31] Seeing, saith he, I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord. What if twenty be found there? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty. [32] I beseech thee, saith he, be not angry, Lord, if I speak yet once more: What if ten should be found there? And he said: I will not destroy it for the sake of ten. [33] And the Lord departed, after he had left speaking to Abraham: and Abraham returned to his place. That's one of my favorite passages in the whole Bible and I can never manage to keep a straight face when I read it. Sometimes I have to lector it and make a total arse of myself. Abraham haggles with God. What a Jew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 That's one of my favorite passages in the whole Bible and I can never manage to keep a straight face when I read it. Sometimes I have to lector it and make a total arse of myself. Abraham haggles with God. What a Jew! Shows that God is open to bargaining! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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