Homosexuality disordered/if you speak a foreign language please read this

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"Every word or attitude is forbidden which by flattery, adulation, or complaisance encourages and confirms another in malicious acts and perverse conduct. Adulation is a grave fault if it makes one an accomplice in another's vices or grave sins. Neither the desire to be of service nor friendship justifies duplicitous speech. Adulation is a venial sin when it only seeks to be agreeable, to avoid evil, to meet a need, or to obtain legitimate advantages (CCC 2480)."

 

​I agree that denying general service to homosexuals is wrong. But, I don't think this is an issue with current events. The issue is providing goods or services to specific things such as a homosexual weddings, or gay pride rallies, etc.--specific things or events that contradict church teaching.

​I think you are explaining it in a way that I can understand and I appreciate that because I have been conflicted about the issue for some time. I even watched a recent 'Good Wife' episode about it and although it presented it from a pro-gay marriage point of view (in my opinion), they did discuss some of the problems about businesses having the right not to support certain events or ideas. 

I think I am coming to the conclusion that say for example, a bakery wanted to refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay marriage, they should be allowed to do so, providing they do not deny the gay person any other general services, such buying other bakery goods. 

It is so hard to determine these 'rights' things because some are about general discrimination and others are about not choosing to participate in something that an individual considers intrinsically 'wrong'. I like your explanation dUSt. Thank you.

[The camel]

Firstly, thanks for the attempt to find me a wife. Should I ever feel the need for a dating service, I now know where to come.

Secondly, I am unsure about the issue of businesses being forced to provide services for people. Instinctively I feel that people should be free to associate, or not associate, with whoever they want. On the other hand I am (just) old enough to remember 'no blacks' signs in shops in England back in the 70s. The problem is that western society has not really developed a mechanism for dealing with situations were one person or groups 'rights' conflict with another's. The whole concept of 'rights' is, I think, an 18th century idea, which owes much to the French Revolution, and was enthusiastically taken up by the Founding Fathers of the United States. As a result, the US has spent the last century equally enthusiastically promoting its concept of rights around the rest of the world, usually regardless of whether the rest of the world wants it or not.

Thirdly, and to return to the original subject, from which we have strayed, I do personally have difficulties with the language used. If I did have a mental illness, say schizophrenia, I would be untroubled by the language of disorder, illness, condition etc. Likewise I would happily take medication to help control the disorder, illness, condition. I cannot feel being gay is remotely similar. Should a drug be able to 'control' my desire for members of the same sex, I would decline (possibly politely, possibly not). I am perfectly happy to embrace a gay identity. It has taken me much time and trauma to get to that point, but you cannot begin to believe the relief that I feel from finally accepting myself as I am.

I think it is difficult for nongay people to quite understand how important sexuality is in self identification for gay people. Nongay people do not usually define themselves as 'straight'. That is because they belong to the majority and dominant group in society, a society which is constructed around their expectations. They do not feel the sense of social dislocation which many gay people experience. I think that is why many gay people can be somewhat brittle, and seem to take offense easily. I am sure the language of the CCC was not intended to be offensive, nor was that of the CDF document whose name I have forgotten and am too lazy to check. As noted, Pope Benedict was (is) the most gentle and compassionate of men. Never have I been happier to be a Catholic than when he occupied the Throne of Peter. But the language (along with some of the language used in this tread, again I am sure by well meaning people) seems very harsh, and can easily and, I think, understandably, be perceived as being rather uncaring.

[CrossCuT]

Firstly, thanks for the attempt to find me a wife. Should I ever feel the need for a dating service, I now know where to come.

Secondly, I am unsure about the issue of businesses being forced to provide services for people. Instinctively I feel that people should be free to associate, or not associate, with whoever they want. On the other hand I am (just) old enough to remember 'no blacks' signs in shops in England back in the 70s. The problem is that western society has not really developed a mechanism for dealing with situations were one person or groups 'rights' conflict with another's. The whole concept of 'rights' is, I think, an 18th century idea, which owes much to the French Revolution, and was enthusiastically taken up by the Founding Fathers of the United States. As a result, the US has spent the last century equally enthusiastically promoting its concept of rights around the rest of the world, usually regardless of whether the rest of the world wants it or not.

Thirdly, and to return to the original subject, from which we have strayed, I do personally have difficulties with the language used. If I did have a mental illness, say schizophrenia, I would be untroubled by the language of disorder, illness, condition etc. Likewise I would happily take medication to help control the disorder, illness, condition. I cannot feel being gay is remotely similar. Should a drug be able to 'control' my desire for members of the same sex, I would decline (possibly politely, possibly not). I am perfectly happy to embrace a gay identity. It has taken me much time and trauma to get to that point, but you cannot begin to believe the relief that I feel from finally accepting myself as I am.

I think it is difficult for nongay people to quite understand how important sexuality is in self identification for gay people. Nongay people do not usually define themselves as 'straight'. That is because they belong to the majority and dominant group in society, a society which is constructed around their expectations. They do not feel the sense of social dislocation which many gay people experience. I think that is why many gay people can be somewhat brittle, and seem to take offense easily. I am sure the language of the CCC was not intended to be offensive, nor was that of the CDF document whose name I have forgotten and am too lazy to check. As noted, Pope Benedict was (is) the most gentle and compassionate of men. Never have I been happier to be a Catholic than when he occupied the Throne of Peter. But the language (along with some of the language used in this tread, again I am sure by well meaning people) seems very harsh, and can easily and, I think, understandably, be perceived as being rather uncaring.

​The bold part made me chortle.

 

Ive read all your posts Camel and I can tell you that you are not alone in your thoughts. However I dont think that the church is ready to answer your questions right now. Ive been asking the same questions for some time and I do not get satisfactory answers. My only hope right now is that our current Pope will help break down some of these barriers and phobias that prevent us from making meaningful strides to helping homosexuals. I hope that some day we can all coexist in peace.

[Not The Philosopher]

 

Thirdly, and to return to the original subject, from which we have strayed, I do personally have difficulties with the language used. If I did have a mental illness, say schizophrenia, I would be untroubled by the language of disorder, illness, condition etc. Likewise I would happily take medication to help control the disorder, illness, condition. I cannot feel being gay is remotely similar. Should a drug be able to 'control' my desire for members of the same sex, I would decline (possibly politely, possibly not). I am perfectly happy to embrace a gay identity. It has taken me much time and trauma to get to that point, but you cannot begin to believe the relief that I feel from finally accepting myself as I am.

I think it is difficult for nongay people to quite understand how important sexuality is in self identification for gay people. Nongay people do not usually define themselves as 'straight'. That is because they belong to the majority and dominant group in society, a society which is constructed around their expectations. They do not feel the sense of social dislocation which many gay people experience. I think that is why many gay people can be somewhat brittle, and seem to take offense easily. I am sure the language of the CCC was not intended to be offensive, nor was that of the CDF document whose name I have forgotten and am too lazy to check. As noted, Pope Benedict was (is) the most gentle and compassionate of men. Never have I been happier to be a Catholic than when he occupied the Throne of Peter. But the language (along with some of the language used in this tread, again I am sure by well meaning people) seems very harsh, and can easily and, I think, understandably, be perceived as being rather uncaring.

​So - I'm curious: what sort of language would you rather see used?

 

[dUSt]

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

I am disordered.

 

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods;

I am disordered.

 

2424 ...The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.

I am disordered.

 

2520 Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. But the baptized must continue to struggle against concupiscence of the flesh and disordered desires.

I am disordered.

 

1394 As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins. By giving himself to us Christ revives our love and enables us to break our disordered attachments to creatures and root ourselves in him

I am disordered.

 

2352 ..."Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."

I am disordered.

 

1768 ... The upright will orders the movements of the senses it appropriates to the good and to beatitude; an evil will succumbs to disordered passions and exacerbates them.

I am disordered.

[The camel]

​So - I'm curious: what sort of language would you rather see used?
 

​I don't have a full and considered answer to that. A start could be to mirror terms gay people generally use themselves. Yes, I know there are billions of gay people and all sorts of diverse opinions, but the use of, for example, the term 'gay' is so universal throughout society that it could usefully be employed. Then, of course, there is the question of tone. We may all, indeed, be miserable sinners, but that is not always the most helpful first thing to say to someone.

[dUSt]

​I don't have a full and considered answer to that. A start could be to mirror terms gay people generally use themselves. Yes, I know there are billions of gay people and all sorts of diverse opinions, but the use of, for example, the term 'gay' is so universal throughout society that it could usefully be employed. Then, of course, there is the question of tone. We may all, indeed, be miserable sinners, but that is not always the most helpful first thing to say to someone.

​I think what you are advocating is ambiguity, or relativism. See my post above your last one. The Catechism tells ME that I am disordered many times. I want my church to be clear on morality. I want to know how to live my life to follow Christ. I do not want the Church to change, I want ME to change. I do not want to conform God to me, but rather, conform myself to God. There are thousands of outlets that are unclear and ambiguous when it comes to morality--even in many churches. That is not what I want from my Church, because I don't think God is an ambiguous God.

[Not The Philosopher]

​I don't have a full and considered answer to that. A start could be to mirror terms gay people generally use themselves. Yes, I know there are billions of gay people and all sorts of diverse opinions, but the use of, for example, the term 'gay' is so universal throughout society that it could usefully be employed. Then, of course, there is the question of tone. We may all, indeed, be miserable sinners, but that is not always the most helpful first thing to say to someone.

​But, you see, modern western LGBTQ parlance seems to be, well, just that - a modern western phenomenon rather than a universal one. Given the ever expanding amount of sexual identities that exists today, there seems to be no conceptual limit to how you can categorize people. I highly doubt we'll be using these terms a couple of centuries (or less) from now.

Even now, you'll find, for instance, men who have no moral problem with homosexuality who don't like to identify as gay because they think the word is too associated with effeminacy and left wing politics.

You can't really stop people from self-identifying as whatever, but all this seems rather slippery to be used in the context of a magisterial document, which should be as precise as possible.

 

[The camel]

​I think what you are advocating is ambiguity, or relativism. See my post above your last one. The Catechism tells ME that I am disordered many times. I want my church to be clear on morality. I want to know how to live my life to follow Christ. I do not want the Church to change, I want ME to change. I do not want to conform God to me, but rather, conform myself to God. There are thousands of outlets that are unclear and ambiguous when it comes to morality--even in many churches. That is not what I want from my Church, because I don't think God is an ambiguous God.

​I am not advocating anything. I am trying to find my own way forward, and responding here to questions and requests for clarifications. As I hope is clear, I am doing so in an exploratory way, explicitly stating that I am unsure of myself.

I am sure God is unambiguous. But we are very ambiguous people. Or I certainly am. I too once wanted certainty, and was attracted to the Catholic Church because she seemed to have it. But it does not seem to have worked terribly well for me. But I really don't know what I want. I am happy to admit to honest doubt.

I have not suggested that the Church should change, have I?

 

[KnightofChrist]

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

I am disordered.

 

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods;

I am disordered.

 

2424 ...The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.

I am disordered.

 

2520 Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. But the baptized must continue to struggle against concupiscence of the flesh and disordered desires.

I am disordered.

 

1394 As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins. By giving himself to us Christ revives our love and enables us to break our disordered attachments to creatures and root ourselves in him

I am disordered.

 

2352 ..."Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."

I am disordered.

 

1768 ... The upright will orders the movements of the senses it appropriates to the good and to beatitude; an evil will succumbs to disordered passions and exacerbates them.

I am disordered.

​That this shows is that those that suffer SSA are not singled out and that the word is not used an attack upon one's mental health. Rather it's just a word used to describe an error and/or sin. There's no need to be hypertensive.

[The camel]

​But, you see, modern western LGBTQ parlance seems to be, well, just that - a modern western phenomenon rather than a universal one. Given the ever expanding amount of sexual identities that exists today, there seems to be no conceptual limit to how you can categorize people. I highly doubt we'll be using these terms a couple of centuries (or less) from now.

Even now, you'll find, for instance, men who have no moral problem with homosexuality who don't like to identify as gay because they think the word is too associated with effeminacy and left wing politics.

You can't really stop people from self-identifying as whatever, but all this seems rather slippery to be used in the context of a magisterial document, which should be as precise as possible.

 

​I did not really intend that for documents of the magisterium. I was thinking rather about here!

[Nihil Obstat]

​I did not really intend that for documents of the magisterium. I was thinking rather about here!

Why should we use language different from the Church Herself, when the Church teaches so clearly and with such a great moral and philosophical tradition supporting Her? Sounds like a quick way to undermine ourselves.

[dUSt]

I do agree that using the term "disordered" in a casual conversation or a discussion about a topic is more harmful than good. It is not out of place in the Catechism though. The Catechism is more like a textbook. People don't usually talk like they are reading from a textbook. It is important to have the ability to explain things to people in a manner that does not shut them off--because when that happens, you are only talking to hear yourself talk.

[Nihil Obstat]

It is important to remember that Internet forum communications are primarily written, so clarity is already at a premium.

[KnightofChrist]

I'm not sure it matters what word(s) is used. It is highly probable that any word(s) used to describe the inclination and/or act of homosexuality as erroneous or sinful will be viewed as harsh and judgmental.