Homosexuality disordered/if you speak a foreign language please read this

[The camel]

Nihil Obstat - thank you. I am perfectly capable of being influenced by what people say. Like Fr Vincent McNabb OP, I hold that truth alone is worthy of our entire devotion. I seek to find truth, and be led into a deeper appreciation of truth. I am, I hope, humble enough to accept that other people can help me in that.

The simple fact is that for 20 years or so I have been trying to do what seems to be God's will, and be faithful to the teaching of the Church. And much misery has it caused me. I risk here mixing rational arguments with rather melodramatic appeals to emotion. I know that is a weakness is arguing a point. But I am not arguing a point. I am trying to find my way forward. So I will make the melodramatic appeal to emotion! Can God really want me to spend the next 20 years in the misery of conflicted feelings in which I have spent the last? Does my unhappiness make God happy? That, though not in so many words, seems to be the message people in my position get. Radical renunciation of self only makes sense if God is prepared to fill the void, and I have not found that to be the case.

[Nihil Obstat]

Nihil Obstat - thank you. I am perfectly capable of being influenced by what people say. Like Fr Vincent McNabb OP, I hold that truth alone is worthy of our entire devotion. I seek to find truth, and be led into a deeper appreciation of truth. I am, I hope, humble enough to accept that other people can help me in that.

The simple fact is that for 20 years or so I have been trying to do what seems to be God's will, and be faithful to the teaching of the Church. And much misery has it caused me. I risk here mixing rational arguments with rather melodramatic appeals to emotion. I know that is a weakness is arguing a point. But I am not arguing a point. I am trying to find my way forward. So I will make the melodramatic appeal to emotion! Can God really want me to spend the next 20 years in the misery of conflicted feelings in which I have spent the last? Does my unhappiness make God happy? That, though not in so many words, seems to be the message people in my position get. Radical renunciation of self only makes sense if God is prepared to fill the void, and I have not found that to be the case.

​Does that void have to be filled in this life? Some people's lives are just full of suffering. Many people die alone and in misery, but in God's friendship. God does not cause our suffering, but He accepts it as, in a sense, a gift from the core of our being out of love for Him.

Of course such words are cold comfort. But what use is comfort?

[Luigi]

1. Clearly, you are seeking to understand, or find meaning, or figure out what to do. You wouldn't have joined the board and posted the topic if you weren't.

2. As dUSt said, Church teaching is what it is, and it's not going to change.

3. No one on this board can give you permission to do something other than what the Church teaches. Even if the pope were a Phatmasser, he couldn't give you permission contrary to Church teaching either.

4. So the question, for you, is what to do. We can offer some suggestions, and you can try the ones that seem like they might be productive, but only you can decide what you are actually going to do.

5. I think you expressed the crux of the matter is your most recent post - "Can God really want me to spend the next 20 years in the misery of conflicted feelings in which I have spent the last? Does my unhappiness make God happy?... Radical renunciation of self only makes sense if God is prepared to fill the void..." I think the answer to the two questions has to be NO. Go doesn't want you to be miserable, and  your unhappiness does NOT make God happy. You've spent 20 years miserable, and you don't want to spend the next 20 in the same misery - fair enough. The question is: How do you find happiness being who you are in the very core of your being while still following Church teaching? And that leads to your statement about radical renunciation - the question there is: How do I allow God to fill the void?

6. I don't know. But I'd suggest you find a confessor-counselor-spiritual director-advisor-friend-confidant you can talk this over with on an ongoing basis. Personally, I'd recommend a theologian. Personally, I'd recommend a Dominican, but there are probably lots of other people out there who would do.

7. And the question, for us on this board, is what to do. Personally, I can't do anything but pray. ​

[The camel]

​Does that void have to be filled in this life? Some people's lives are just full of suffering. Many people die alone and in misery, but in God's friendship. God does not cause our suffering, but He accepts it as, in a sense, a gift from the core of our being out of love for Him.

Of course such words are cold comfort. But what use is comfort?

​I am not quite sure what the point is that you are making.

Maybe I should clarify a little, too. I am certainly not proposing to begin a life a debauchery. All I intend, all I really wish, is to be able to publicly affirm what seems to me to be an important part of my self identity. The point is not about doing anything, it is more about being, and the need to have that accepted. By God, I suppose, who must I guess accept, or at least understand.

In 2011 at Freiburg, Pope Benedict said that conscientious agnostics, those "who are constantly exercised by the question of God, those who long long for a pure heart but suffer on account of our sin, are closer to the Kingdom of God than believers whose life of faith is 'routine' and who regard the Church merely as an institution, without letting their hearts be touched by faith." The context makes clear that 'our sins' means the sins of Catholics. The Pope used that visit to point out home truths to the German Church!

So I think that is where I am. I do not really know what to think. I long for 'purity of heart', but find full acceptance of all the Church may say difficult. I pick my way forward, hoping for God's guidance, but mostly in darkness.

[Lilllabettt]

if you believe Catholicism is true you have no choice but to follow through with it, no matter how miserable it makes you. Any other way of living would be a fraud.

In Kenya there are mothers who let their children die rather than deny Christ when al Shabab asks them "are you a Muslim?" There are people in Saudi Arabia and Iran who have spent years in the darkest of prisons because they are Christians. In Tehran they get them addicted to drugs so that they can then torture them with withdrawal. These people will most likely suffer this way for the rest of their lives, and they could buy relief in an instant by renouncing Christianity. But they choose instead to suffer rather than deny something they believe is true. 

You speak of " conflicted feelings." Maybe I am unusual in this regard, but what would bother me and haunt me and irritate me to no end would be the idea of me living in contradiction to what I understand is true on such a central issue as sexuality. 

If you don't believe in this religion any more, than you should give it up and not pretend to be what you are not. 

But if you are a Catholic and you do not live this teaching because it is "too hard," you spit in the sacrifice of the martyrs who have gone before you. 

[The camel]

But if you are a Catholic and you do not live this teaching because it is "too hard," you spit in the sacrifice of the martyrs who have gone before you. 

​I did not say that it is 'too hard'. May I respectfully ask that you read what I did write before accusing me of 'spitting in the sacrifice of the martyrs'. Sadly, yours is the attitude that drives so many who are honestly seeking answers out of the Church.

[Nihil Obstat]

Maybe I should clarify a little, too. I am certainly not proposing to begin a life a debauchery. All I intend, all I really wish, is to be able to publicly affirm what seems to me to be an important part of my self identity. The point is not about doing anything, it is more about being, and the need to have that accepted. By God, I suppose, who must I guess accept, or at least understand.

So I think that is where I am. I do not really know what to think. I long for 'purity of heart', but find full acceptance of all the Church may say difficult. I pick my way forward, hoping for God's guidance, but mostly in darkness.

​What is it about your identity that is worthy in God's eyes? I mean that as an honest question, not as an attack,

[The camel]

​What is it about your identity that is worthy in God's eyes? I mean that as an honest question, not as an attack,

​I guess I want/need to feel that I am accepted for who I am. I don't mean accepted for my faults. But as indicated, sexuality seems to be intrinsic to identity, and seems, at some deep level which I cannot explain, rather important. I don't mean having sex, but sexual identity. I am not trying to justify promiscuity or whatever.

Church now, so I am unlikely to respond. It is not because I got fright!

[Gabriela]

@Thecamel: Why is sexuality intrinsic to identity? I think that modern secular society has made the mistake of conflating what we do with who we are. If that is true, we are all horrible and unworthy of salvation.

But it is not true, and indeed, the Church does not condemn you for feeling SSA. She only condemns your acting on SSA.

There is an option for you: Accept who you are (someone who feels SSA), be open about that, and know that you are loved by God and His Church. At the same time, know that you are not your urges, that they do not define you, and so refrain from acting in sinful ways.

[Luigi]

​I guess I want/need to feel that I am accepted for who I am. I don't mean accepted for my faults. But as indicated, sexuality seems to be intrinsic to identity, and seems, at some deep level which I cannot explain, rather important. I don't mean having sex, but sexual identity. I am not trying to justify promiscuity or whatever.

Church now, so I am unlikely to respond. It is not because I got fright!

God does accept you for who you are. The Church - at least officially -  does accept you for who you are. Some individuals within the Church, who have not yet attained perfection in their interactions with all of their brothers and sisters, may come across as less-than-accepting. But that's true for every believer. We are all ignored, or looked down on, or treated as lepers, or whatever, by some people sometimes.

We are all just wounded warriors in the Army of the Lord. But he can - and does - use us as instruments of his will, in spite of ourselves.

So keep on keeping on.

 

[Nihil Obstat]

​I guess I want/need to feel that I am accepted for who I am. I don't mean accepted for my faults. But as indicated, sexuality seems to be intrinsic to identity, and seems, at some deep level which I cannot explain, rather important. I don't mean having sex, but sexual identity. I am not trying to justify promiscuity or whatever.

Church now, so I am unlikely to respond. It is not because I got fright!

​Sexuality, I would agree, is an integral part of our identity. But IMO it does not follow that homosexuality is a valid expression of our core sexuality. At least, it does not necessarily follow. Do you disagree?

[Ash Wednesday]

Oh dear. I really had no intention of getting into such hot water.

​Welcome to phatmass.

I will include you in my rosary today, camel.
Have you ever seen "Desire of the Everlasting Hills"? 

[Gabriela]

Good call, Ash. Here's a link, Camel, if you haven't seen it: https://vimeo.com/101135437

And here's another good one called "The Third Way": https://vimeo.com/93079367

[Lilllabettt]

​I did not say that it is 'too hard'. May I respectfully ask that you read what I did write before accusing me of 'spitting in the sacrifice of the martyrs'. Sadly, yours is the attitude that drives so many who are honestly seeking answers out of the Church.

So you are "honestly seeking answers."  I am giving you an honest answer.

Can God really want me to spend the next 20 years in the misery of conflicted feelings in which I have spent the last? Does my unhappiness make God happy? That, though not in so many words, seems to be the message people in my position get. Radical renunciation of self only makes sense if God is prepared to fill the void, and I have not found that to be the case.

The answer is yes.

I promise you that God is not going to "fill the void" for the mother who gave her child for the love of God. Not for the people languishing in prison for His sake either. Shame on whatever people or books led you to expect that. The idea is foreign to authentic Christianity.   

If you are looking for someone to give you an explanation to make it easier you are on a fools errand. 

The only thing more miserable than living in accord with conscience is living in conflict with it. 

[Catlick]

St. Augustine writes that one crucified thief was not saved, so we shouldn't presume.
We should never think we can get away with mortal sin. Don't even think about going in that direction. 'One nude picture is venial sin, not mortal sin', 'I'm born gay so it's natural that I date guys', 'if I don't have blackouts another drink is fine'... It's all a step into the eternal grave that is Hell.

St. Augustine also writes that the other crucified thief was saved, so we shouldn't despair.
I know from experience how grace can work in you, liberating you from seemingly unescapable prisons and smashing seemingly unbreakable chains.

I strongly dislike any talk of 'born again' rhetoric. Grace doesn't end your problems, it teaches you not to drown in them.