Homosexuality disordered/if you speak a foreign language please read this

[Era Might]

The positive or negative connotations are not actually in the word (although they do get associated with the word) - the connotations are in the attitude of the speaker. The usages change depending on both the changes in connotation and on who's in power at the moment.

​I disagree somewhat, the word has etymological connotations apart from the speaker's attitude. "Order" and "Place" and "Guide." Order connotes something that is part of a whole, but does not connote anything about the object (it is "objective" not "subjective"). "Place" is "subjective" in that it requires an agent who can do the placing. "Guide" is teleological, connotes that there is an end being aimed at (or misaimed at).

I would be curious to know the theological history of the word "disorder" and if it was ever used in the context of homosexuality. I imagine past ages had very different ways of speaking about homosexuality...in which case "disorder" may have a philosophical/theological history, but not necessarily a history in the context in which the Catechism uses it. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I think words do matter (the fact that a new Catechism was written reflects the fact that the church had things it wanted to say in a new language).

[Norseman82]

How do you explain the tens of thousands of religious and other people in this world who live perfectly happy lives without engaging in sexual acts? They find their identity elsewhere, suggesting that our identity is what we choose it to be. You are a child of God. Why not make that the core of your identity?

​They were given the grace to handle lifelong celibacy.  Not everyone has been given it.  That is verified by what Christ Himself said (see Matthew 19:10-12).

[Gabriela]

​They were given the grace to handle lifelong celibacy.  Not everyone has been given it.  That is verified by what Christ Himself said (see Matthew 19:10-12).

​But do you think that God would refuse the gift of lifelong celibacy to someone suffering with SSA?

Edited April 9, 2015 by Gabriela

[Era Might]

​They were given the grace to handle lifelong celibacy.  Not everyone has been given it.  That is verified by what Christ Himself said (see Matthew 19:10-12).

​Christ refers to people who have "been made Eunuchs by men." There are lots of reason why people may not have a happy married life that have nothing to do with religious celibacy (and an unhappy married life might be worse than a celibate life). I'm not so sure about the idea that only some people have some "grace to handle lifelong celibacy." How would you know until you were dead? If you die before marrying, and you were celibate up until that point, were you not a lifelong celibate? You may not have known it, but you were.

I think it's an important point around the Christian view of homosexuality, because it doesn't classify homosexuals as some special class of unenforced celibates. They are part of the human condition, and there are plenty of heterosexuals who are made eunuchs by men, whether because of bad marriages, tragedy, ugliness, destiny, etc. Not everyone has a picture perfect ending...but isn't the point of Christianity not that we get a picture perfect ending, but that we get the reason for living through the struggle?

Edited April 9, 2015 by Era Might

[The camel]

​But do you think that God would refuse the gift of lifelong celibacy to someone suffering with SSA?

​First, I am going to assume that you mean 'people whose gay orientation causes them to suffer', rather than that you are suggesting that one might 'suffer from SSA' like one might 'suffer from flu' or something.

Secondly, the intolerable burden that enforced celibacy places on some people does suggest that, yes, it is not a gift they are given.

[Nihil Obstat]

The only grace we are always unconditionally guaranteed is the grace to pray. To beg for strength, for the ability to return to God's friendship, for the further grace to avail ourselves of confession...

[Gabriela]

​First, I am going to assume that you mean 'people whose gay orientation causes them to suffer', rather than that you are suggesting that one might 'suffer from SSA' like one might 'suffer from flu' or something.

Secondly, the intolerable burden that enforced celibacy places on some people does suggest that, yes, it is not a gift they are given.

No, I mean suffering from SSA, which is so much worse than the flu.

In response to your "secondly": 

​Christ refers to people who have "been made Eunuchs by men." There are lots of reason why people may not have a happy married life that have nothing to do with religious celibacy (and an unhappy married life might be worse than a celibate life). I'm not so sure about the idea that only some people have some "grace to handle lifelong celibacy." How would you know until you were dead? If you die before marrying, and you were celibate up until that point, were you not a lifelong celibate? You may not have known it, but you were.

I think it's an important point around the Christian view of homosexuality, because it doesn't classify homosexuals as some special class of unenforced celibates. They are part of the human condition, and there are plenty of heterosexuals who are made eunuchs by men, whether because of bad marriages, tragedy, ugliness, destiny, etc. Not everyone has a picture perfect ending...but isn't the point of Christianity not that we get a picture perfect ending, but that we get the reason for living through the struggle?

​

I entered this thread because, at the beginning, you (Camel) seemed to be expressing great suffering, and my intention was to help. Then you turned quite hostile, particularly towards me, so I left. I only came back because someone quoted me. I will leave again now, but if someone else quotes me, I will respond, and in that case, I would ask that you please refrain from hostility and try to keep things civil, as you did at first.

[Nihil Obstat]

While our temptations can cause great suffering, some vastly more painful than others, that does not allow us to excuse those sins or downplay their sinfulness. 

Homosexual attraction may very well be one of the most painful causes for suffering for those Catholics who deal with it. But suffering is an opportunity to draw closer to Christ and to be a witness for the Church. 

The ability to conform our suffering to Christ is one of the greatest gifts we have been given.

[Ark]

[Norseman82]

​But do you think that God would refuse the gift of lifelong celibacy to someone suffering with SSA?

​I thought Christ answered that question by stating that "not everyone can accept the teaching, only those to whom it was given" which implies that it will not be given to everyone?

​Christ refers to people who have "been made Eunuchs by men." There are lots of reason why people may not have a happy married life that have nothing to do with religious celibacy (and an unhappy married life might be worse than a celibate life). I'm not so sure about the idea that only some people have some "grace to handle lifelong celibacy." How would you know until you were dead? If you die before marrying, and you were celibate up until that point, were you not a lifelong celibate? You may not have known it, but you were.

I think it's an important point around the Christian view of homosexuality, because it doesn't classify homosexuals as some special class of unenforced celibates. They are part of the human condition, and there are plenty of heterosexuals who are made eunuchs by men, whether because of bad marriages, tragedy, ugliness, destiny, etc. Not everyone has a picture perfect ending...but isn't the point of Christianity not that we get a picture perfect ending, but that we get the reason for living through the struggle?

​

Christ also referred to those who "have freely renounced sex for the sake of God's reign", which refers to celibacy.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Norseman82

[Norseman82]

While our temptations can cause great suffering, some vastly more painful than others, that does not allow us to excuse those sins or downplay their sinfulness.

Homosexual attraction may very well be one of the most painful causes for suffering for those Catholics who deal with it. But suffering is an opportunity to draw closer to Christ and to be a witness for the Church.

The ability to conform our suffering to Christ is one of the greatest gifts we have been given.

​At the same time, God does give us an "out", and that is heterosexual marriage, as long as one has no canonical impediments.

[Gabriela]

​I thought Christ answered that question by stating that "not everyone can accept the teaching, only those to whom it was given" which implies that it will not be given to everyone?

​

Christ also referred to those who "have freely renounced sex for the sake of God's reign", which refers to celibacy.

​I don't know that this really answers the question, because it could still be that all those in the set of SSA-sufferers are among the set of those "to whom it is given".

I think we also need to consider that whether God gives this gift may depend a great deal upon whether we truly desire it, and pray fervently for it to be given us.

[Socrates]

The truth is that homosexual attraction and behavior are in fact disordered (i.e. wrongly ordered).  The Church regards the only right ordering of human sexuality to be between man and woman.  Of course, this is contrary to the politically correct view of the modern world, which does not regard human sexuality as having any ontological order or or purpose.

The sexuality of homosexuals is disordered, and that is all the Church is saying.  That in no way implies that persons with SSA are generally insane or mentally incompetent.

I'm really not sure if there is a "nicer" way of putting this teaching in English, which would not water down or distort the truth. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Socrates

[Socrates]

​There are only so many ways to tell a person they are wrong. It seems to me that many people want the Church to figure out a way to allow gay people to continue living their lifestyle and also be in good standing with the Church. This will never happen. Any expectations of such need to be squashed so people who want to live according to Christ's teaching can make a decision to either be people of faith, or slaves to their sexual urges.

This ^​

 

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

I am disordered.

 

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods;

I am disordered.

 

2424 ...The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.

I am disordered.

 

2520 Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. But the baptized must continue to struggle against concupiscence of the flesh and disordered desires.

I am disordered.

 

1394 As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins. By giving himself to us Christ revives our love and enables us to break our disordered attachments to creatures and root ourselves in him

I am disordered.

 

2352 ..."Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."

I am disordered.

 

1768 ... The upright will orders the movements of the senses it appropriates to the good and to beatitude; an evil will succumbs to disordered passions and exacerbates them.

I am disordered.

​Those Vatican meanies are just hateful bigots against everybody!

[Era Might]

​I thought Christ answered that question by stating that "not everyone can accept the teaching, only those to whom it was given" which implies that it will not be given to everyone?

​

Christ also referred to those who "have freely renounced sex for the sake of God's reign", which refers to celibacy.

​I would take his words a little differently, not as referring to celibacy as a set-apart calling, but referring to the radical acceptance of the coming of the kingdom. If you notice, his saying about eunuchs is in the context of his Apostles saying it is better not to marry than to bind yourself to one person forever, no matter what.:

 

"And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry." But he said to them, "Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."

I don't think he's saying that some are called to marriage and some aren't (the first two groups of eunuchs don't have a choice, even if they become Christian). I think he's saying that to be a eunuch for the kingdom is to sacrifice what is most dear to you...there are many people who may desperately want to marry, but can't for some reason or another (can't find a spouse, have their own problems, whatever). For them to become eunuchs (sacrifice what they most desire and can't have) is the greatest sacrifice. After all, if you become a celibate just because it is easy for you or because it fits in with the kind of life you want to lead, what have you really sacrificed? But if you desire marriage, and can't have it, then that it's truly a sacrifice to accept the situation for the kingdom. The Apostles are saying, why get married if you may have to remain celibate for the rest of your life (because you can't remarry if something happens)? And Christ is saying, the man who gets married and is not willing to sacrifice his marriage, is not willing to live for the kingdom, is not receiving the radical calling which Christ is placing on discipleship. I don't think this passage is in defense of marriage so much as it is putting Christ even above marriage, saying that marriage too passes away. St. Paul says this more clearly in 1Corinthians 7:29-31:

 

I mean, brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Era Might