Intro To Budge

[Brother Adam]

Oh you too. Come on. You can do better than this.

Lumberjack, why are you telling me "If you were to say this though you would be wrong"? That isn't what I'm saying. lol.

And Budge, plain fact is, if someone worships the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they are worshipping the true God. Unless if you are making the error that the God of the Old Testament is different than the God of the New Testament.

There are some forms of "truth" in most religions. Does it make it a true religion? No. We consider Protestants Christians, but we do not consider Buddhists Christians.

[Budge]

[quote]And Budge, plain fact is, if someone worships the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they are worshipping the true God. Unless if you are making the error that the God of the Old Testament is different than the God of the New Testament. [/quote]


Jesus was a Jew and there is a direct link to Judaism, we dont have the Koran at the front of our BIbles for a reason though more and more it looks like the Catholic Church may change that;)

Islamics preach destruction of Jews and Christians, so obviously they dont believe we are all worshipping the same God from their end.

I beleive Islam is worshipping a demon, idolatry included--with that black cube in Mecca they march around.

Reading the Koran--yes I have read it, the personality of the Islamic god is nothing like the One True God. This god talks of beating wives, women going to hell, horrible things, murder of infidels, and conditional love.

The BIble condemns another gospel, it doesnt state oh they are worshipping God too!

In Genesis, Islam and its founder are WARNED ABOUT....It would be best to heed Gods warnings.

[b]12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.[/b]

Islam is a demonic religion. Muslims do NOT know God.

[b]Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 359, Ayesha reported that Haresah-b-Hisham asked the Apostle of Allah and said, "O Apostle, how does revelation come to you?" The Apostle of Allah responded, "Sometimes it comes to me like the ringing of a bell..." The bells of hell? The association with devils is more clear in the following:

Al Hadis, Vol 4, p. 360, Obadah-b-Swamet reported that when a revelation came to the Prophet, he used to become greatly disturbed, and his face became changed. And in a narration, he would nod his head, and his companions nodded theirs..." Attested by Muslim. [/b]

Sounds like demonic possession to me!

[amarkich]

Budge, I would just like to point out that some of the "extreme" things that are practiced by the most conservative Protestants are also (or should I say, actually)Catholic teachings. While most of these are not concerning things which are intrinsically evil (e.g., gambling was forbidden in the early Church for pastoral reasons, not because it is intrinsically evil; hence, it is not a sin to bet; also, Saint John Vianney gave a great Sermon about the horrible effects of taverns and dances; again, while drinking--at least in places like taverns--and dancing--depending on the kind of dance--are not intrinsically sinful, they can be a great cause of scandal for many people and are often warned against by the Saints). Just so you know, true Catholics will assert that these things are true. It is not to say that they are intrinsically sinful, but it is true that they are often scandalous (and some dances are intrinsically sinful--mortally sinful; e.g., typical "club" dancing or other mob-like 'dancing' activities; virtually all modern dances would be sinful, but if you can find a nice, traditional waltz or some other sort of Catholic event, it would not necessarily be sinful). In case you are interested, please read Saint John Vianney's Sermon. I think you will enjoy it. In fact, it is actually titled "Be Religious or Be Damned!" I love the title. The link is provided below. Also, the modesty which I assume you are used to, while almost never practiced by Catholics, has been given to us by the Church in matters of Faith and morals (modesty is morality). The Church has spoken on this matter and has given the restrictions on clothing which can be called modest. This link will be provided second, after the link to the Sermon, but I will leave the actual modesty code in this message. Here it is:


Modesty Standards
On January 12, 1930, the Sacred Congregation of the Council, by mandate of Pope Pius XI, issued emphatic instructions on modesty of dress to all bishops, directing them to insist on these prescriptions: [b]"[u]We recall that a dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat, which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows, and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knee. Furthermore, dresses of transparent material are improper. [/u]
"Let parents keep their daughters away from public gymnastic games and contests; but, if their daughters are compelled to attend such exhibitions, let them see to it that they are fully and modestly dressed. Let them never permit their daughters to don immodest garb."[/b]
Rufino J. Cardinal Santos, Archbishop of Manila, also quotes these standards as "The Church's Stand concerning Modesty in Dress" in his Pastoral of December 6, 1959. The feminine loss of the sense of modesty was indicated by Pope Pius XII who said: "Now many girls do not see anything wrong with following certain shameless styles (fashions) like so many sheep. They would surely blush if they could only guess the impressions they make and the feelings they evoke (arouse) in those who see them." (July 17, 1954.)
"O Christian mothers, if only you knew the future distress, peril and ill-restrained shame that you prepare for your sons and daughters by imprudently accustoming them to live barely clothed, and permitting them to lose the sense of modesty, you would be ashamed of yourselves, and of the harm done to the little ones entrusted to you by Heaven to be reared in a Christian dignity and culture."
And, men also are held to the virtue of modesty; witness the admonition of Canadian bishops in May of 1946: "Man himself does not escape from the inclination of exhibiting his flesh: some go in public, stripped to the waist, or in very tight pants or in very scanty bathing suits. They thus commit offenses against the virtue of modesty. They may also be an occasion of sin (in thought or desire) for our neighbor."
The opinion which allows custom to dictate the question of modesty was refuted by Pope Pius XII in one short sentence: "There always exists an absolute norm to be preserved."
Custom, of course, pays no attention to absolute norms; but, it is a follower of this false principle: "... the majority cannot go wrong."
To say that "... modesty is a matter of custom" is just as wrong as to say that "... honesty is a matter of custom."
What about those who teach "What is customary does not affect us?"
Pope Pius XII calls this application of an ancient principle to the virtue of modesty, "the most insidious of sophisms." He calls attention to the fact that some people use this sophism "...in order to brand as 'old fashioned' the rebellion of honest people against fashions they consider too bold."
The Pope's pronouncements make no distinctions for various types of garments. Pius XII states "...an unworthy, an indecent mode of dress has prevailed" without any distinction of place, "on beaches, in country resorts, on the streets, etc." (Aug. 29. 1954)
His quotation: "Vice necessarily follows upon public nudity," applies as well to the beaches, or the streets, or resorts, or elsewhere.
Cardinal Pla y Daniel, Archbishop of Toledo, Spain, stated in 1959: "A special danger to morals is represented by public bathing at beaches... Mixed bathing between men and women, which is nearly always a proximate occasion of sin and a scandal, must be avoided."
Modern Catholics may now consider themselves "far too adult" and disdain such directives, but nevertheless they remain the wise counsels of our Holy Mother the Church.


Sermon by Saint John Vianney concerning Dances:
[url="http://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/dancing.shtml"]http://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/dancing.shtml[/url]

Link to the Modesty Laws of the Church:
[url="http://www.olrl.org/virtues/modcrus.shtml"]http://www.olrl.org/virtues/modcrus.shtml[/url]

Also, recognize that while most Catholics do not obey the Church in this regard (modesty), there are Parishes where the same values (almost the same anyway) that you have at your protestant community, as far as morals are concerned, are fostered and practiced whole-heartedly by all those who attend. While I have never seen this at a Novus Ordo Parish, it can certainly be found at most, if not all, Traditional Latin Mass Parishes where many Traditionalists abound. God bless.

EENS,
Adam

Edit: I had not been reading this thread, but I just read some things that you stated above. It seems that we agree on many more things than I do with most Protestants. I also believe (with the Church) that heretical religions, while they may possess some aspects or elements of truth (e.g., there is a God, or there is a God which is the Trinity, etc), they do not possess the truth necessary for salvation. God bless.

Edited June 14, 2004 by amarkich

[Justified Saint]

"If you are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through...if you are Christian, you are free to think that all those religions, even the queerest ones, contain at least some hint of the truth."

C.S. Lewis from [i]Mere Christianity[/i]

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Jesus was a Jew and there is a direct link to Judaism, we dont have the Koran at the front of our BIbles for a reason though more and more it looks like the Catholic Church may change that;)[/quote]

Right. I don't think so.

[quote]Islamics preach destruction of Jews and Christians, so obviously they dont believe we are all worshipping the same God from their end.

I beleive Islam is worshipping a demon, idolatry included--with that black cube in Mecca they march around.[/quote]

No one is saying that Islam is a true religion (accept Ayed of course, our resident Muslim here at phatmass). And I would believe there is demon activity taking place in Islam. Perhaps some Muslims even worship demons. However, they do exercise the belief in the same God of the Old Testament as we have. That is as far as we are going. No one is condoning the Muslim religion.

[Aloysius]

the devil has clouded their eyes so they may not see the fullness of the True God, but as God created them they were drawn to the truth. Mohammad [i]studied[/i] Islam and Judaism and came to the conclusion that that God was true, but even with this amazing conclusion which could have paved the way for Christianity to be brought to the arabs, the devil clouded mohammads eyes. The devil could not convince him not to believe in the God of the Christians and Jews, so he clouded his view of Him as much as he could so that this religion would be a detriment to being saved through Jesus Christ. But we cannot deny that the fact that islam recognizes the Creator of the Universe as the one true God, their idea of Him has simply been clouded so as to detriment their salvation. But God sees them and hears their pleas to Him calling Him "Allah" and He will work with their hearts as He sees fit to hopefully break through their clouded vision and reveal Himself to them. If they seek to serve Him their entire lives and never have the oppurtunity to know Christ, God will still work through their clouded vision and give them the oppurtunity to escape the devil's trick in which he has made them think God is someone to be served but not a Gentle Loving Father. You may cast as many curses upon these people as you want, but as for me and my bretheren in the Catholic Church, we will pray for them to the True God that He may take away their misconceptions and reveal His Full Truth to them.

Islam started, IMHO, as a Judeo-Christian heresy, because MOHAMMAD discovered that there was something there in the Jewish Religion, that YHWH was real, but he couldn't accept (clouded by his intellect which the devil surely had a hold of) the facts of the Trinity and Jesus Christ as the Second Person of this trinity.

Pax Iesus

[Budge]

[quote]; also, Saint John Vianney gave a great Sermon about the horrible effects of taverns and dances; again, while drinking--at least in places like taverns--and dancing--depending on the kind of dance--are not intrinsically sinful, they can be a great cause of scandal for many people and are often warned against by the Saints). Just so you know, true Catholics will assert that these things are true. It is not to say that they are intrinsically sinful, but it is true that they are often scandalous (and some dances are intrinsically sinful--mortally sinful; e.g., typical "club" dancing or other mob-like 'dancing' activities; virtually all modern dances would be sinful, but if you can find a nice, traditional waltz or some other sort of Catholic event, it would not necessarily be sinful).[/quote]


Perhaps this is true in some conservative circles but I doubt youd find a Novus Ordo church that teaches drinking, smoking, and most dancing is wrong. In fact Ive been to Catholic dinners where alcohol is served and I remember the endless raffles and bingo. My church teaches modest dress for women--I know this is true in *some* Catholic churches and that men are leaders of the home--I think many would find my church to be very conservative. Of couse we denounce homosexuality, are prolife and more.

I am glad that in earlier times they taught these things, but I see the Catholic church--Novus Ordo (I know Trad churches stick to the old rules more) as having become liberalized like many Protestant churches that would also consider my church to the extreme. It would be like comparing my fundamentalist church to the United Methodists who worship the Goddess around here. (had friend leave out of UM church when they did that)

I have never heard any reminders for modesty in the last Catholic churches Ive been in. One time was an exception, visiting priest. I know the dress where I go to church now for women is far different. We wear mostly wear dresses, Pants are allowd if they are very modest and under long top. My pastor in fact does do sermons on modesty and proper dress for men and women. My last Catholic Church--and I know this not true of the Trad ones and others had girls that wore crop tops and short pants, and other clothing that was different. it is a much different atmosphere.
[quote] it can certainly be found at most, if not all, Traditional Latin Mass Parishes where many Traditionalists abound. God bless.[/quote]

I agree with you. While I dont agree with Trads that the Catholic Church is the one true church and doctrine, at least they have refused liberalizing trends, the interfaithism and stick to Christian values pertaining to modesty.

[quote]. It seems that we agree on many more things than I do with most Protestants. I also believe (with the Church) that heretical religions, while they may possess some aspects or elements of truth (e.g., there is a God, or there is a God which is the Trinity, etc), they do not possess the truth necessary for salvation. God bless. [/quote]

Thanks for explaining.


I tend to agree with Trads more on some issues.

[quote]No one is saying that Islam is a true religion (accept Ayed of course, our resident Muslim here at phatmass). And I would believe there is demon activity taking place in Islam. Perhaps some Muslims even worship demons. However, they do exercise the belief in the same God of the Old Testament as we have. That is as far as we are going. No one is condoning the Muslim religion. [/quote]

How can it be the same god if in the Koran Jesus Christ is denied? At least you admit the demonic activity. Look in UUism, our services contained worship of all the religions including Islam. I know spiritually and inside that all the false religions lead way from the ONE TRUE GOD(only exception being Judaism where they know Jehovah but they still need Jesus too)

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Hello Budge,
Just because people at your old Church behaved in an offensive manner, doesn't mean the faith was corrupt. We are all sinners. Not everyone who goes to Church is truly a Catholic.

[quote]How can it be the same god if in the Koran Jesus Christ is denied? At least you admit the demonic activity. Look in UUism, our services contained worship of all the religions including Islam. I know spiritually and inside that all the false religions lead way from the ONE TRUE GOD(only exception being Judaism where they know Jehovah but they still need Jesus too)[/quote]
Muslims worship the God of Abraham, so they do in fact worship the one true God. However, they don't understand His triune nature. Just because they don't understand what he really is, and don't know His Son, doesn't mean they aren't looking at the same God. And just because they worship the true God, doesn't make their religion valid. They see Him as a shadow, hence their denial of Jesus and errant holy texts. It is up to us to bring them to Christ.

Edited June 15, 2004 by thedude