Intro To Budge

[Budge]

Please see the thread I put up on Islam, I found 3 verses in the Koran that directly DENY Christ.

[quote]. Nowhere in that post did I assert that the Islamic religion as a whole was true and good, but what I did point out was that, like everything else on earth, it is not totally evil.[/quote]

Right here we disagree.

This is what the Bible says about accepting and promoting "truths" in false religions.

Right here [b]God CONDEMNS seeking truths in other religions[/b]:

[quote] Deu 12:28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest [that which is] good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God. 


Deu 12:29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 


Deu 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and [b]that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. [/b][/quote]


[quote] In other words, based on the truthful proposition that there is only one God, a Christian can use this one truth held by Muslims, in order to bring a Muslim, with the help of God's grace, to faith in Christ.[/quote]

I dont see this being done. At every one of these interfaith meetings, active prolestyzation is condemned. It was not allowed at Assisi. All this "dialogue" hasnt led anyone to Christ. Missionaries who preach the WORD are bringing people to Christ.


[quote] To say that everything that Islam believes is by definition evil, is to fall into the logical error of saying that monotheism itself is evil, since Muslims are monotheists.[/quote]

That is nickel and diming things also forgets that one can hand a person a glass of water and if 2% of is rat poison, all the "truths" in the world dont help. Even Satanists believe God is real, that is a "truth". This whole thing of stripping down and calling out half-truths is illogical.


[quote], "we should use those seeds [i.e., that Muslims are monotheists] in order to bring the fullness of truth to those struggling in error and darkness." But it is by building on the monotheism of Islam, that a Christian can witness to a Muslim and help to bring him, by God's grace, to faith in Christ;[/quote]

I have studied the interfaith movement long enough, to know that all is being done is a MASSIVE watering down of the gospel. On my Islam post I quote from the Vatican where they are being told they already worship God. Paul told the pagans they were mistaken. I havent seen the correction of any errors.

So what were you missing in the Methodist church that you sought to find in Catholicism?

Edited June 14, 2004 by Budge

[Apotheoun]

Thanks for all your research on Islamic beliefs, but my second Bachelors Degree was in History, with a secondary focus on the development of Islamic theology during the first 600 years of that religions history. So I am quite familiar with the Qu'ran, the [i]Hadith[/i] (all the major versions, including the Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih al-Muslim, Sunan abu Dawud, and even the collection by Malik Muwatta), which all form a part of what Muslims call [i]the Sunnah[/i], and of course the [i]ijma[/i] (consensus) of the [i]Ulema[/i]. I also studied about the formation of the various schools of jurisprudence in Sunni Islam, i.e., the Hanafite, Hanbalite, Malikite, Shafiite schools. I investigated the development of the Islamic understanding of the nature of the Qur'an itself, focusing on the theological speculations of Ahmed Ibn Hanbal in particular, but I also studied the earlier views of the Asharite school on the nature of Qu'ranic revelation. I studied the 'theory of acquisition of acts' promoted by Al-Ashari and the views of the Mu'tazilites on free will. I also studied various writings by Al-Ghazali, which focused primarily on his rejection of philosophy and reason, and his elevation of tradition to a governing paradigm in religious thought. So I am quite familiar with the Islamic religion. But I feel compelled to emphasize to you yet again, that the focus of my posts in this thread as it concerns Islam have been very specific, and that I am not arguing that Islam is a true religion or that it possess a valid revelation of God. Instead, I have focused solely on the monotheistic nature of Islam, and this is what you have completely ignored. It would be nice if in your posts I saw some indication of the fact that you had actually read and comprehended what I have written.

God bless,
Todd

Edited June 14, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Budge]

[quote]Thanks for all your research on Islamic beliefs, but my second Bachelors Degree was in History, with a secondary focus on the development of Islamic theology during the first 600 years of that religions history[/quote]

Do I have to have the endless academic credentials listed? By the way are you a college professor? Otherwise how do you make your living?

Academia is its own trap. I have noticed how academia has fallen into extreme liberalism. Karen Armstrong would someone else who has fallen into the academic trap of exchanging Gods wisdom for humans wisdom and doing the universal thing to as far as the worlds religions are concerned. I was used to ministers with 2 and even 3 phds while UU. It was college professor haven. So sorry the listing of extensive academic credentials isnt going to impress me much.


.[quote] So I am quite familiar with the Qu'ran, the Hadith (all the major versions, including the Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih al-Muslim, Sunan abu Dawud, and even the collection by Malik Muwatta), which all form a part of what Muslims call the Sunnah, and of course the ijma (consensus) of the Ulema. I also studied about the formation of the various schools of jurisprudence in Sunni Islam, i.e., the Hanafite, Hanbalite, Malikite, Shafiite schools. I investigated the development of the Islamic understanding of the nature of the Qur'an itself, focusing on the theological speculations of Ahmed Ibn Hanbal in particular, but I also studied the earlier views of the Asharite school on the nature of Qu'ranic revelation.[/quote]

And youre losing the forest for many of the trees.

Why the extreme interest in Islam? Do you publish books on it? Teach?



[quote]But I feel compelled to emphasize to you yet again, that the focus of my posts in this thread as it concerns Islam have been very specific, and that I am not aruging that Islam is a true religion or that it possess a valid revelation of God. Instead, I have focused solely on the monotheistic nature of Islam, and this is what you have completely ignored. It would be nice if in your posts I saw some indication of the fact that you had actually read and comprehended what I have written.[/quote]

That fact doesnt matter. You can tell me that Satanists believe God is real. It doesnt matter to me that Islamics got acouple things right. It doesnt matter. It isnt going to save them from the fact that they are in bondage to a Satanic religion. Anyway being a monotheist and believing in the WRONG god or spirit rather then KNOWING The TRUE God, really does you NO FAVORS in terms of salvation.

[PedroX]

Wow, what a great example of an ad hominem attack! Can't respond to Apotheun's post so lets just mock him!


Focus on his points. There can be truth contained in systems of belief outside of Christianity. All truth is God's truth, as He is the source, summit and author of all truth. The Muslims acknowledge that there is one God. This is truth. This links them to the ultimate truth (Christianity) in a way that few other religions can be.

peace...

[Apotheoun]

[quote]Academia is its own trap. I have noticed how academia has fallen into extreme liberalism. Karen Armstrong would someone else who has fallen into the academic trap of exchanging Gods wisdom for humans wisdom and doing the universal thing to as far as the worlds religions are concerned. I was used to ministers with 2 and even 3 phds while UU. It was college professor haven. So sorry the listing of extensive academic credentials isnt going to impress me much.[/quote]


Ignorance is not bliss, and I certainly will not apologize for the fact that I am a well educated person. And by the way, being well educated does not by definition necessitate being a liberal. But I can see from your posts that you really aren't interested in a serious dialogue, and I have no desire to beat my head against a rock.

So go in peace, God bless....

Edited June 14, 2004 by Apotheoun

[cmotherofpirl]

Attacking the poster simply means you are incapable of addressing the many valid points in his post, correct?

Acknowledging that there is one God is a valid point in the Muslims favor. You have to start the conversion process SOMEWHERE.

Sheesh!

[Budge]

How did I mock him?

I just wrote academic credentials arent going to impress me.

[quote]There can be truth contained in systems of belief outside of Christianity. All truth is God's truth, as He is the source, summit and author of all truth. The Muslims acknowledge that there is one God. This is truth. This links them to the ultimate truth (Christianity) in a way that few other religions can be. [/quote]

This very premise I disagree with.

A monotheist if they believe in the WRONG God or spirit---the demon Mohammed talked to is still lost.

Why do Catholics seek truths in other religions? What is missing in Christianity for you all?

You at heart are universalists if you accept the above, that truths exsist in false religions, that false religions lead to God.

Most false religions were authored by Satan.

[Budge]

[quote]Ignorance is not bliss, I certainly will not apologize for the fact that I am a well educated person. And by the way, being well educated does not by definition necessitate being a liberal. But I can see from your posts that you really aren't interested in a serious dialogue, and I have no desire to beat my head against a rock.[/quote]

I consider your viewpoints liberal.

I did not judge you as being liberal per your education.

Also bragging about your education did not ADD anything to the thread but was very prideful and boastful. Most Americans even wouldnt have the finances to major in extensive studies of the Islamic religion. What do you do with such a degree?

I am interested in serious dialogue but youre going to have to accept that some people are going to DISAGREE with you.

[cmotherofpirl]

"You at heart are universalists if you accept the above, that truths exsist in false religions, that false religions lead to God."


There is only one Truth - God.

If another religion acknowledges that there is ONE God, then you have a starting point for dialogue.
Only one religion leads to salvation, but more than one religion can lead you to believe in God. That is a first step. Look at the history of the jews, look how long it took for them to believe in just one God.

Catholics have the fullness of faith, and have no need to look elsewhere for something that doesn't exist [anything better than the Church founded by Jesus Christ] There is only one Truth, but we acknowledge that other groups may have bits and preces of that Truth. He implanted a moral law in each of us, and calls all people to Him in one way or another.

Calling US liberal strikes me as hysterically funny.

Edited June 14, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[the lumberjack]

WELCOME BUDGE!!!!

WOOO HOOOO!!!!

hope to see you around here more...A LOT MORE...


God bless.

In Christ,

dumbstruck the clutz.

[Budge]

I am a fundamentalist trust me I am probably more *conservative* then most Catholics except Trads that are on here.

I do not believe other religions have truths. Even Manson probably had a couple people he liked and did not murder, that does not make him a better person. When a broken clock is right once a day, it does not mean that clock WORKS.

Fullness of truth is a oxymoron, something is either entirely true or it is a lie. Islam is a lie.

Hi Lumberjack!!

[the lumberjack]

hey...thats funny...my rap group is called the FunDaMentals... so I guess I'm a fundamentalist too.

though some people here probly won't look on that too well.

wonderful post.

I like the clock one...

Christ first.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 14 2004, 12:29 PM'] I am a fundamentalist trust me I am probably more *conservative* then most Catholics except Trads that are on here.

I do not believe other religions have truths. Even Manson probably had a couple people he liked and did not murder, that does not make him a better person. When a broken clock is right once a day, it does not mean that clock WORKS.

Fullness of truth is a oxymoron, something is either entirely true or it is a lie. Islam is a lie.

Hi Lumberjack!! [/quote]
"God exists" - Truth.

"God is a Trinity by nature" - Truth.

"Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man." - Truth.

"All forms of drinking, in any amount is a sin" - False.

"We can be saved by going to church every Sunday" - False.


If one person believes the previous set of statements, they believe some things that are true. But they also believe some things that are false. They have some truth, but they do not have the fullness of truth. It is truth mingled with lie.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]"All forms of drinking, in any amount is a sin" - False.

"We can be saved by going to church every Sunday" - False.[/quote]

however.... all forms of drinking in any amount in front of someone who considers it a sin IS sin. TRUE

Make your brother not to stumble.

and as for the last one...forsake not the assembly of the saints...right?

so its part of our salvation...not the center of it, but definitely part of it.

and its also in what you mean by church...



Christ first!

[Budge]

[quote]God exists" - Truth.

"God is a Trinity by nature" - Truth.

"Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man." - Truth.

"All forms of drinking, in any amount is a sin" - False.

"We can be saved by going to church every Sunday" - False.


If one person believes the previous set of statements, they believe some things that are true. But they also believe some things that are false. They have some truth, but they do not have the fullness of truth. It is truth mingled with lie. [/quote]

But this may work with OTHER CHRISTIANS...
but not those who worship a false God.

Ok Islamics say "god exsists"

But its the WRONG God! Where is the truth in that?

There is none.

Lets use an analogy.

There is Bob and Bill.

Bob is pretending to be Bill but really isnt.

Just because Bob is wearing a red shirt like Bill doesnt make him Bill.

:b

Fundamentalists dont believe one is saved by ANY church.

Good points lumberjack!