Intro To Budge

[Budge]

Im 35, I have an interesting religious history. I am an ex Unitarian Universalist of 13 years, raised Roman Catholic, went back to Catholic Church 3 years-only Christian church I knew since I had just left UUs, (The HOly Spirit took me out of UU church in one day but that is another long story:b), and now an independent Baptist. Disabled for last seven years, I used to be art teacher and worked with troubled youth. in Chicago. Trying to publish book on non-religious topic.

I was born again in Christ in 2002. Praise HIM! I am in a very good church, loving Christian fellowship, and I love the Word of God. I read and study the Bible almost daily.

I have interests religiously online. I am very against the interfaith movement. In fact I have been studying this issue some time. When I was UU we were taught that all religions lead to god or an archetype of god. The UU church combines paganism, New Age, Theosophy, Humanism and belives that all religions should come together.

I disagree entirely with the interreligious dialogue and movement of merging religions together in liberal Protestantism--URI and of what is happening in Catholic church.

This board looks interesting so thought Id stop by.

[peach_cube]

Welcome,

That is a very interesting story. I would like to hear even more about your faith journey. You can share your story in more detail in the converts phorum...if you like. It's always cool to see the different ways that the Holy Spirit works.

Peace,

J.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 11 2004, 09:57 PM'] I am in a very good church, loving Christian fellowship, and I love the Word of God. I read and study the Bible almost daily. [/quote]
That's very commendable. I hope you will consider reading Catholic books to further your studies. I remember in Gerry Matatics's conversion story he recounted that when he first started reading Catholic books he was amazed to find convincing biblical arguments for Catholicism. Previously he didn't even know they existed.

[quote]I have interests religiously online. I am very against the interfaith movement. In fact I have been studying this issue some time. When I was UU we were taught that all religions lead to god or an archetype of god. The UU church combines paganism, New Age, Theosophy, Humanism and belives that all religions should come together.

I disagree entirely with the interreligious dialogue and movement of merging religions together in liberal Protestantism--URI and of what is happening in Catholic church.[/quote]

[color=red][editbylittleflower+JMJ: Criticism;Lack of Respect of the Religious][/color]

[Budge]

I do own Catholic books but now beleive in Fundamentalist beliefs.

I believe the Bible is inerrant, Sola Scripture etc.

[quote]Amen. Hindus in the Fatima shrine, Vatican officials delaring that the Church has no intention of making Russia a Catholic country, Cardinals saying that Jews have their own covenant which is salvific for them even if they deny Christ... It's apostasy, and its coming from the top down. [/quote]

So you see it too? Ever now and then I mean a Trad or other Catholic who sees it.
I disagreed with the stuff about Jews--they still need Jesus preached! What if the apostles had followed that logic?!, the Assisi meetings. I still remember day God showed me what was happening when I found Arinzes book --Solidarity of all Religions--(2002) and realizsed it read just like a UU book. Even in my own state theyve had Buddhists in one Catholic church doing ceremonies. I also remember when I read about Assisi too and was horrified. Im loyal to Jesus Christ first and formost. I do consider most of the leadership of the Vatican to be in full out apostasty. I know the occult. They cant hide it from me. In fact I had my eyes bug out to see the paganism in pictures of Mahoneys "Cathedral". We may disagree on one thing I suppose, I know Trads still believe the Catholic church is the One True Church where to me the total apostasty of the Catholic leadership led me out.

I went to a Catholic church that was very very liberal. New Age mediatations, Half the womens Bible study is into Rekki and New Age healings, other scandalous things going on.

[Brother Adam]

Hola. I'm a Baptist Christian-turned-Catholic Christian.

Yes, there are people in the Catholic Church that may participate in sinful activities, but the Church remains what it is. One, Holy, True, Apostolic. And I'm not a Traditionalists either. But not liberal by any means.

You say you believe in sola scriptura (or solo scriptura, either way), yet how do you reconcile these with a Bible-only view of doctrine:

Age of reason
Faith [i]alone[/i]
symbolic baptism
symbolic Eucharist
Doctrinal roots in men of God instead of the Church of God (Calvin, Luther, Zwingli)

I'll give you those for starters.

The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to the tradition handed down to us. It tells us to study the scriptures, but also tells us the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church. Churches that do not exercise the divine liturgy are lacking in the essential worship of God as seen in Revelation and often become what their names are: "community centers". Probably a quarter of the protestant churches don't even call themselves churches around here anymore. You have to talk to someone to figure out it is a church. Nothing is held to be sacred.

Catholics believe in salvation by grace through faith which brings about the obedience of the faith (Romans 1:5, 3:23-26, 6). Spiritual fruit is required after initial salvation through spiritual rebirth (baptism). All those who die in a state of grace inherit eternal life. Those who do not forfeit their inheritance.

[Budge]

[quote]Hola. I'm a Baptist Christian-turned-Catholic Christian. [/quote]

Why did you leave Baptist church would like to hear that.

[quote]Yes, there are people in the Catholic Church that may participate in sinful activities, but the Church remains what it is. One, Holy, True, Apostolic. And I'm not a Traditionalists either. But not liberal by any means.[/quote]

IF even the Pope and Cardinals are involved and almost every American bishop--cant judge other countries since I dont live there it goes beyond just a few sinners. The Bible says that unrepentant sinners are to be removed from the church. The Catholic Church doesnt do that per the scandal.

I dont agree with the politics or religious teachings of the Vatican. All the pro United Nations stuff makes my skin crawl too.

What do you consider to be THE CHURCH? People are seeing some pretty deep corruption. I have to admit it bothers me when Catholics say its only a few sinners when even for the horrible scandals 2/3rds of all dioceses bishops were invovled.

[quote]The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to the tradition handed down to us. It tells us to study the scriptures, but also tells us the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church. Churches that do not exercise the divine liturgy are lacking in the essential worship of God as seen in Revelation and often become what their names are: "community centers". Probably a quarter of the protestant churches don't even call themselves churches around here anymore. You have to talk to someone to figure out it is a church. Nothing is held to be sacred. [/quote]

My church is far from a community center. We are a true Christian fellowship. I have had my church family help me out. If one of our families suffers or cant pay bills we are there. We use the Bible and pray and love God. I do not beleive we are lacking in essential worship of God. I do not believe in Real Precense or sacramentalism though. There is liberalism infecting Protestantism as well as Catholicism.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 11 2004, 10:57 PM']
I disagree entirely with the interreligious dialogue and movement of merging religions together in liberal Protestantism--URI and of what is happening in Catholic church.

[/quote]
Join the club.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 12 2004, 10:45 AM']



All the pro United Nations stuff makes my skin crawl too.

[/quote]
Again, join the club.

[popestpiusx]

What you are disagreeing with in the two quotes I just gave is not Church teachings, but rather prudential decisions (and very poor ones, I admit) being made by certain Vatican prelates. The decisions are in no way binding on the faithful and are, therefore, not a good reason to leave the Church.

[daugher-of-Mary]

[quote]I have to admit it bothers me when Catholics say its only a few sinners when even for the horrible scandals 2/3rds of all dioceses bishops were invovled. [/quote]

Could you please provide some support for that claim?

[Aloysius]

2/3rds of the bishops failed to discipline their priests correctly. when it comes to the amount of people actually committing the horrid crimes, it is a few sinners. And you know where we got these priests? FROM THE CULTURE that has failed to keep moral decency. The Seminary should've rejected them at the door for being so immature, a good vocation director should have seen that right away! The Bishops were being more spineless than malicious.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Why did you leave Baptist church would like to hear that. [/quote]

First, for the glory of God. Second, because the Bible and Protestantism do not go hand in hand. Catholic doctrine is overwhelmingly scriptural. I have over 240 books in my collection, ranging from the most anti-Catholic material ever written, to the most ortholox Catholic material ever written. Having read as much as I have, and devoted myself to prayer and fasting, after many years of study I am left with no other conclusion than that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be. And yet, I believe I have barely touched the surface of what is available to us today. The Catholic faith has an inmeasurable and ancient wealth of knowledge and wisdom. Historical matters in the way of the decisions of Catholic leaders not pertaining to faith or morals, or any scandal that may exist in the Church during one time or another cannot keep us from embracing the faith handed down from Christ himself.

[quote]What do you consider to be THE CHURCH[/quote]

The Church is the body of Christ put simply. Christ is the head of the Catholic Church. The Roman Pontiff is the visible leader of the pilgrim Church here on earth. The Church embraces both sinner and saint, welcoming and beckoning all to come. Those who have been baptized are members of the body of Christ, those who fall away will be separated at the end of time, as the Lord Jesus Christ tells us in the gospel.

[quote]This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

Just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and persecution, so the Church is called to follow the same route that it might communicate the fruits of salvation to men. Christ Jesus, "though He was by nature God . . . emptied Himself, taking the nature of a slave",(77) and "being rich, became poor"(78) for our sakes. Thus, the Church, although it needs human resources to carry out its mission, is not set up to seek earthly glory, but to proclaim, even by its own example, humility and selfsacrifice. Christ was sent by the Father "to bring good news to the poor, to heal the contrite of heart",(79) "to seek and to save what was lost".(80) Similarly, the Church encompasses with love all who are afflicted with human suffering and in the poor and afflicted sees the image of its poor and suffering Founder. It does all it can to relieve their need and in them it strives to serve Christ. While Christ, holy, innocent and undefiled(81) knew nothing of sin,(82) but came to expiate only the sins of the people,(83) the Church, embracing in its bosom sinners, at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, always follows the way of penance and renewal. The Church, "like a stranger in a foreign land, presses forward amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of God"(14*), announcing the cross and death of the Lord until He comes."(84) By the power of the risen Lord it is given strength that it might, in patience and in love, overcome its sorrows and its challenges, both within itself and from without, and that it might reveal to the world, faithfully though darkly, the mystery of its Lord until, in the end, it will be manifested in full light. - [i][b]Lumen Gentium, Second Vatican Council, pgs. 4-5, Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Church[/b][/i]. [/quote]


[quote]My church is far from a community center. We are a true Christian fellowship. [/quote]

You are an orphaned Christian fellowship. Christian- yes. Does your Church have truth? Yes. Is it the fullness of Truth? No. Is it broken in unity from the whole? Yes. Consider Christ's prayer for unity for Christians.

[quote]I do not believe in Real Precense or sacramentalism [/quote]

Why?

+BA
www.flyfreeministries.org

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 12 2004, 08:37 AM'] I believe the Bible is inerrant, Sola Scripture etc. [/quote]
Biblical innerancy is a Catholic belief, too, though much of Catholic literature and much of the Catholic school system doesn't teach it anymore.

[quote]Pope Leo XIII: Providentissimus Deus, “It is absolutely wrong and forbidden either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Sacred Scripture or to admit that the sacred writer has erred;”

Pope Pius X: Lamentabili Sani: Condemns the following notion: “Divine inspiration does not extend to all of Sacred Scriptures so that it renders its parts, each and every one, free from every error;”

Pope Benedict XV: Spiritus Paraclitus: “...the divine inspiration extends to all parts of Scripture without distinction, and that no error could occur in the inspired text;”

Pope Pius XII: Divino Afflante Spiritu, repeats Pope Leo XIII’s decree: “It is absolutely wrong and forbidden either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Sacred Scripture or to admit that the sacred writer has erred;”

Pius XII: Humani Generis: Condemns the following notion: “...immunity from error extends only to those parts of the Bible that treat of God or of moral and religious matters”;

Pope Pius IX: Syllabus of Errors: Condemns the following notion: “The prophecies and miracles set forth and recorded in the Sacred Scriptures are the fiction of poets, and the mysteries of the Christian faith the result of philosophical investigations. In the books of the Old and the New Testament there are contained mythical inventions.”

Vatican Council 1: “Further, this supernatural revelation...is contained in the written books...from the apostles themselves by the dictation of the Holy Spirit, and have been transmitted as it were from hand to hand” (Denz. 3006).

“But the Church holds these books as sacred and canonical, not because, having been put together by human industry alone, they were then approved by its authority; nor because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and, as such, they have been handed down to the Church itself....God inspired the human authors of the sacred books...it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever He wanted written, and no more.” (Denz 1787).

Pope Leo XIII: Providentissimus Deus (I, B, 2, b): “For the Sacred Scripture is not like other books. Dictated by the Holy Spirit, it contains things of the deepest importance, which, in many instances, are most difficult and obscure....For all the books in their entirety...with all their parts, have been written under the dictation of the Holy Spirit” (Denz. 3292).[/quote]

[quote]Even in my own state theyve had Buddhists in one Catholic church doing ceremonies.[/quote]
Do you live in Michigan, by any chance? I know they brought in Buddhists to chant in the basilica in Grand Rapids, but the monks were protested by the SSPX and they never did their show.

[quote]In fact I had my eyes bug out to see the paganism in pictures of Mahoneys "Cathedral". [/quote]
Oh Lord, don't remind me of that monstrosity.

[quote]We may disagree on one thing I suppose, I know Trads still believe the Catholic church is the One True Church where to me the total apostasty of the Catholic leadership led me out.[/quote]
I take young David for my example. King Saul was a murderous lunatic, but he was still the Lord's annointed, and David respected that, so he would not kill him.

[color=red][editedbyLittleflower+JMJ: Criticism/Lack of Respect of the Religous][/color] But that does not change the fact that they are His annointed.

[KennC]

Well for Heavens sake, .. first Bill and now Budge! Nice to see you out and about as well there.

Peace of Christ, Ken

[Budge]

[quote]All the pro United Nations stuff makes my skin crawl too.



Again, join the club.


[/quote]

Wow its nice to meet a Catholic who agrees with me.

I knew about United Nations from UU church, their agendas match. Liberal intelligensia. We used to have the UN flag in UU churches.



[quote] What you are disagreeing with in the two quotes I just gave is not Church teachings, but rather prudential decisions (and very poor ones, I admit) being made by certain Vatican prelates. The decisions are in no way binding on the faithful and are, therefore, not a good reason to leave the Church. [/quote]

I studied up massively on what the Vatican is doing. And I was extremely distressed. Its from the top and not just a *few* prelates. So far with exception maybe of Ratzinger, most of them support the agenda of the interfaith and rest. I have read Vatican II documents from Nostra Aetate (disagree whole heartedly about what is said about Islam in that document) and many others.

It would be foolish to remain in a church where I do not agree with the doctrines nor the direction the leadership is going.

I dont have trust in the Catholic leadership. I beleive when Jesus was making that promise about HIS CHURCH, it meant the Christian church with him as the head--all true Christians in Christ no worldy institution. Compare even the simple life of Christ with no place to lay his head and the often worldly and decadent life of previous Popes. I know latter ones live more austerely but that wasnt always true. The Pope is even listed in the famous book of Royalty.


[quote]
Could you please provide some support for that claim? [/quote]

Let me look for the article. Its Catholic. It was the Jay report 75% of all bishops were involved.


[quote] 2/3rds of the bishops failed to discipline their priests correctly. when it comes to the amount of people actually committing the horrid crimes, it is a few sinners. And you know where we got these priests? FROM THE CULTURE that has failed to keep moral decency. The Seminary should've rejected them at the door for being so immature, a good vocation director should have seen that right away! The Bishops were being more spineless than malicious. [/quote]

As a very conservative Christian--fundamentalist, Im in a church where we dont even go to movie theatres. I beleive Christians should be a peculiar people. Most Novus Ordo Catholics at least would consider my church extremist in how we seperate from the world. I dont even believe in listening to rock music. I believe all Christian churches are being infiltrated by a decadent culture but with exception of few Catholic churches, most are very liberal. My past church saw nothing wrong with meditation,Yoga, modern movies, gambling, drinking, Harry Potter and the New Age. I think most Novus Ordo Catholics in the pews would find my church very conservative and wouldnt be used to the fact that when one becomes a Christian as we teach it, ones life is supposed to be totally changed.

As for the bishops being spineless, dont take this wrong,,,,but I find them to very weak, I have seen an air of pure compromise. Even these arguments about letting Abortion politicans having Eucharist is silly. Either enforce the rules(I dont believe In Eucharist but they should be following their own rules) and quit pretending to follow them or not.

[quote]First, for the glory of God. Second, because the Bible and Protestantism do not go hand in hand. Catholic doctrine is overwhelmingly scriptural. I have over 240 books in my collection, ranging from the most anti-Catholic material ever written, to the most ortholox Catholic material ever written. [/quote]

I own a whole religious library I started as UU even. I was into other world religions while UU, every UU is into comparative religion but I own plenty of Catholic books along with my Protestant and fundamentalist ones. I believe the Bible does go hand in hand with my faith. I started reading the Bible when I was ill in 2001. I found many things that didnt add up with Catholicism, so I came to opposite conclusions that you did. I always find that interesting. I came to conclusion that the Catholic Church is not what it claims to be and is spoken of in Revelation. I was considerably bothered since my eschatalogical views did not line up with the Catholic Church. I beleive we are in the End Times now. I am pre-trib but do not stick totally to the Rapture coming before there is trouble, because of verses warning the AC will put saints to death. I would talk about these things and that too they had no interest. My own last priest told me when I protested the stuff with the UN and told him I knew for a fact (see UNESCO thread on Fatima thread) that the UN was pushing the merging of all religions together told me "But the Vatican sees the UN as the best vehicle to bring the world together as one" All I know is when I was a hardcore Theosophist and UU into the occult, subscribing to a Theosopy magazine is that Alice Bailey taught that too, that the UN was hope of the world and that all religions should come together in "universal brotherhood"

[quote]The Church is the body of Christ put simply. Christ is the head of the Catholic Church. The Roman Pontiff is the visible leader of the pilgrim Church here on earth. The Church embraces both sinner and saint, welcoming and beckoning all to come. Those who have been baptized are members of the body of Christ, those who fall away will be separated at the end of time, as the Lord Jesus Christ tells us in the gospel.[/quote]

I believe the Church is the body of Christ too and that Christ is the head. But I do not believe the Vatican owns the Christian church nor does the Roman Catholic church own Christiandom though Catholics if they have saving faith in Christ (see Hebrews, Romans and Galatians) can be members of Christs true church. I cannot accept the Roman Pontiff as the visible leader of Christs church because well to be blunt...I believe he teaches Theosophy. When he talks about the Seeds of the Word being in all religions, and I knowing where false religions lead basically to destruction it is enough to make one cry. One thing I pray for Catholics is they realize the unity of Christians is to be in Christ despite everything else. Not in the Pope and other men I believe will be misleading millions.


[quote]
You are an orphaned Christian fellowship. Christian- yes. Does your Church have truth? Yes. Is it the fullness of Truth? No. Is it broken in unity from the whole? Yes. Consider Christ's prayer for unity for Christians. [/quote]

Phrases such as fullness of truth bother me. Something is either truth or lie. It is not inbetween. As for the fullness, I left what I considered to be false doctrine. For me to go to Baptist church was returning to more of the purity of CHristian faith.
Unity is to be in Christ, not in the Vatican. I have felt unity in Christ with Catholics before but it is not under any worldly power.

[quote]
Why?[/quote]

That will take its own thread to answer:)

+[quote]Biblical innerancy is a Catholic belief, too, though much of Catholic literature and much of the Catholic school system doesn't teach it anymore.[/quote]

On another message board, I found a document by American bishops that called literal belief in the Bible to be *intellectual suicide*. I do not believe in evolution even. I believe in the Bible literally. I believe its prophecies will come true. I believe the Bible does teach, science and history properly in its own way. I have read Catholic documents where bishops wrote that the Bible was only true as far as things applying to salvation, maybe even in same document that said it was intellectual suicide to believe in it.

I love the Word of God and three readings a week not in context just wasnt enogh.

The fact that most priests I saw giving homilies seems to see the Bible as just fables, and gentle reminders of Gods love--rather then the sword! and the armour of every Christian--Ephesians 6 also deeply troubled me.

[quote]Do you live in Michigan, by any chance? I know they brought in Buddhists to chant in the basilica in Grand Rapids, but the monks were protested by the SSPX and they never did their show.[/quote]

I was rooting for the SSPX. I dont live in that town but maybe I would have shown up to.

The one world religion stuff is getting strong. That is just one incident. Here in my small town chruches have done Goddess worship and more. Im waiting for that to be next.

[quote]In fact I had my eyes bug out to see the paganism in pictures of Mahoneys "Cathedral". 


Oh Lord, don't remind me of that monstrosity.[/quote]

Pretty horrid. I found out more, there is actually a snake in the kids playground there. A statue of a wolf about to eat some sheep outside too! Im not kidding. There is a Catholic on a Trad message board who took pics. Zodiac signs in the front foyer and for those who know the occult, total signs of out and out Satanism in that place. I think if any true Christian went into that place, theyd be running out in sheer spiritual horror, surely its got demons in there even.

[quote]I take young David for my example. King Saul was a murderous lunatic, but he was still the Lord's annointed, and David respected that, so he would not kill him.

The bishops are the Lord's annointed today, and though they are not murderous lunatics, they are for the most part corrupt. But that does not change the fact that they are His annointed. [/quote]

I cannot believe they are anointed. They show no sign of charisma. For me the idea of apostolic succession collapsed with the sex scandals. Jesus warned of the wolves. He did not say follow them. Somtimes I am seriously seriously scared for most Catholics (I worry less about Trads who see the apostaties) who are going to be misled by totally wicked men. Just the fact that I can tell there is a Cathedral full of Satanic symbols is enough to me to prove that the Catholic Church leadership does not hold any special charisma.

Trust in Jesus first,

Fear God before men.