Mary

[ICTHUS]

Can anyone help me out on this?

[quote name='Me']Firstly, the idea that the Council of Ephesus' definition that Mary is the Theotokos can be dichotomized from Catholic piety is ridiculous - the reason it is a part of Catholic piety is because of Ephesus!! History tells us that when the Council Fathers at Ephesus made this ruling, ecstatically jubilant Christians paraded the bishops through the streets, such was their joy!

The idea that she is Queen Mother is clearly the logical conclusion of the principles that,

a.) In ancient Israel, in a Davidic Kingship, the mother of the King was the Queen.
b.) Mary is the mother of the Ultimate Davidic King, Jesus Christ.

c.) Thus, it follows that Mary is the Queen Mother of the New Israel, by virtue of her motherhood of our glorious King.

The idea that she is the Mother of Christians is plainly obvious from the fact that she is Jesus' mother, and we are children of the Father by virtue of bring brethren of Christ. Why would you deny something so evident from Scripture?[/quote]

[quote name='Donny' date=' my opponent']This is exactly what I mean. This is an overapplication (if that is a word, and I'm using it properly) of Mary being the theotokos. Just because she is Christ's mother in that she bore him does not mean she necessarily takes the office of Queen Mother, for how do we know there is even such an office in the NT kingdom?

Also, we cannot say that Mary is mother of us all, because the Church takes that role. Christ is the Husband, the Church is the Bride, and in this comparison, we can say that we, the children of God, are nurtured by both Christ, and His body, the Church. Mary simply does not factor into this anywhere.

There are two lines of argumentation that I find fatal to the catholic views on mary. First, there is simply no scriptural mention of Mary as the Queen Mother or the mother of all Christians. I realize that this does not absolutely prove it, but to find absolutely no mention of her high status, considering the fact that she was alive at least early in the book of Acts, can definitely cast doubt on your claims.

Second, you are applying the fact that Mary is mother of God farther than scripture allows. Yes, scripture claims that Mary bore Christ, but why does this extend farther than merely physical birthing him and nurturing Him as a small child. Why does this necessarily extend to her position in the New Covenant Kingdom (Queen Mother, Mother of us all).[/quote]

Edited June 12, 2004 by ICTHUS

[phatcatholic]

Jesus assumed her into heaven so as to afford her the "crown of glory" and to fulfill in mary the OT prophecies and parallels of the Queen of the Kingdom

scripturecatholic.com, as always, is abundantly helpful here:

[b]III. Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom[/b]
[b]John 19:26 [/b]- Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

[b]Rev. 12:17 [/b]- this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

[b]John 2:3[/b] - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

[b]John 2:7[/b] - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

[b]Psalm 45:9[/b] - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

[b]1 Kings 2:17, 20 [/b]- in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

[b]1 Kings 2:18 [/b]- in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

[b]1 Kings 2:19 [/b]- in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

[b]1 Kings 15:13 [/b]- the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

[b]2 Chron. 22:10 [/b]- here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

[b]Neh. 2:6[/b] - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.


[b]VI. Mary's Assumption into Heaven[/b]
[b]Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5[/b] - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

[b]2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 [/b]- Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

[b]Psalm 132:8[/b] - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

[b]2 Cor. 12:2[/b] - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

[b]Matt. 27:52-53 [/b]- when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary's assumption into heaven.

[b]1 Thess. 4:17 [/b]- we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

[b]Rev. 12:1[/b] - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

[b]2 Thess. 2:15 [/b]- Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.


[b]VII. Mary's Coronation in Heaven[/b]
[b]2 Tim 4:8[/b] - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

[b]James 1:12 [/b]- those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

[b]1 Peter 5:4[/b] - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

[b]Rev. 2:10 [/b]- Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

[b]Rev. 12:1[/b] - Mary, the "woman," is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

[b]Wis. 5:16 [/b]- we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.


all of this OT talk of the Queen of the Kingdom extends to the new Kingdom of heaven b/c we see Mary assumed into heaven for this very purpose. Revelations reveals her as the fulfillment of the OT Queen. She is the great woman crowned w/ 12 starts. she sits beside the King, interceding for the faithful. The Lord holds her in high esteem and acknowledges the prayers of the faithful that the Queen brings before Him. this is how it works both in heaven and on earth (see the wedding at canna, where mary intercedes for the bride and bridegroom, see the words of Simeon that to her "the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

the NT by its very nature fulfills the OT, so there is no reason to believe that this obvious position of the Queen in relation to the King of the OT should be abolished, especially since there are so many striking parallels between them and the NT evidence we have here.

i hope this answers ur question

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[St. Catherine]

Scripture says that Mary is our Mother.

“Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.” (Rev 12:17)


We are her "offspring" that is, she is our mother.

The "woman" is refering to Mary because the "women" gave birth to Jesus;

"Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. 5 Her child was caught up to God and his throne." (Rev 12:4-5)

Edited June 12, 2004 by St. Catherine

[P3chrmd]

[quote]Also, we cannot say that Mary is mother of us all, because the Church takes that role. Christ is the Husband, the Church is the Bride, and in this comparison, we can say that we, the children of God, are nurtured by both Christ, and His body, the Church. Mary simply does not factor into this anywhere[/quote]


Oh yes she does sweetheart! I mean if others only knew the fullness of Mary and her role...MARY IS THE BRIDE because Mary is the CHURCH! So it makes since...the church is the bride....and Mary represents the church! And her being the queen as stated before...I mean it ALL JUST FITS TOGETHER SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH!!!!!


Revelation 12...By saying the woman represents Mary you are also saying that she represents Isreal and the Church! Because Mary is the perfect daughter of Isreal and the Mother of the Church...THE BRIDE! CHRIST AND MARY! MAKES SINCE FOLKS...WHAT PART DONT PEOPLE SEE!

Everyone who is not catholic or has objections of Mary...READ Hail Holy Queen by Scott Hahn! Everything fell into place after reading that! NEVER NO MORE will I have ANY more questions about Mary's role or place in the church!

Jesus et Maria, Amos Vos, Salvate Animas

Brandon V.

[ICTHUS]

Would someone like to explain how Mary can be both Christ's Bride and Christ's mother??? *scratches head*

[Aloysius]

why is that important? God promised to re-establish the Davidic Kingdom FOREVER. In the Davidic Kingdom the mother of the King is the Queen. That's a modern government that makes the wife of the king the Queen.

PAX

[ICTHUS]

My opponent originally asked how we know there is such an office in the New Testament Kingdom. I think it is a fair question, and deserves an answer. Any takers?

[Aloysius]

God's PROPHECY

2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron.17:12,14

God promises david's house and throne to be established forever. In david's kingship, the mother was the queen. DAVID'S HOUSE HAS BEEN RE-ESTABLISHED UPON THE EARTH, YO. Jesus Christ is the new Davidic King, His mom is thus the Queen because GOD PROMISED the DAVIDIC KINGDOM!

How far does God go to fulfill His promises? Does He just fulfill it part way? Or does He fulfill every aspect, with the OT archetypes fulfilled in every spot by the NT fulfillments?

PAX

[Archangel]

I've never heard of Mary being referred to as the "bride of Christ". I've always heard of her being the bride of the [b]Holy Spirit[/b].

[Brother Adam]

That's correct. The Church is the bride of Christ. Mary can appropriately play a role as Queen mother and still be a member of the Body of Christ.

Your friend is wrong that it is an "over application". On the other hand, ascribing to Sola Scriptura, he is not allowed to look outside the Sacred Scriptures for Truth. He must completely throw oral teaching, tradition, history, and the Church. I'd say, he is too narrow minded.

[Brother Adam]

Isn't it interesting that it always comes down to authority. Your friend is convinced that because he doesn't see Mary as the mother of God spelled out in the scriptures in a way that allows for corporate theology, it has to be wrong.

[phatcatholic]

icthus,

i too an new to the analogy of mary as the "bride" of Christ, but i suppose there is nothing wrong w/ it. afterall, the Church is the "bride" of Christ, and Mary is the perfect symbol of the Church.

but, she is also his mother.

so, how do we reconcile the two? well, i think its a matter of thinking outside the box. the way our world works, you can never marry your mother. but, when speaking of mystical things, the analogies can only do them justice up to point. the word "bride" is merely used to signify (for us feeble-minded humans) the intimate connectionb between Jesus and His Church. Paul himself says it is a mystery. anyway, mary is not the "bride" of Christ as we understand "bride" on earth, but is instead the "bride" in the sense that she is intimately connected to Jesus Christ.

this new understanding of "bride" then does not contradict the biological way in which Mary is indeed the Mother of Christ as well.

as for rather or not we know that the office of Queen is present in the NT kingdom, i believe i illustrated the affirmative when i provided all that scripture which proves that Mary, in the new kingdom, is the fulfillment of the Queen in the OT. plus, we see mary, in revelation, as a great woman present both body and soul in heaven w/ a crown of 12 jewels upon her head. this, along w/ the verses that support the Assumption, the Queenship and the Coronation all affirm that such an office is present in the new kingdom, and that Mary fills it.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 12 2004, 05:41 PM'] My opponent originally asked how we know there is such an office in the New Testament Kingdom. I think it is a fair question, and deserves an answer. Any takers? [/quote]
Mary having a crown of 12 Stars should be good enough (Rev 12). Add that to the structure of the King and Queens in David's time and with Jesus coming from that line I think it's rather solid.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 12 2004, 08:51 PM'] That's correct. The Church is the bride of Christ. Mary can appropriately play a role as Queen mother and still be a member of the Body of Christ.

Your friend is wrong that it is an "over application". On the other hand, ascribing to Sola Scriptura, he is not allowed to look outside the Sacred Scriptures for Truth. He must completely throw oral teaching, tradition, history, and the Church. I'd say, he is too narrow minded. [/quote]
Actually, Bro Adam, you assume an incorrect definition of Sola Scriptura.

Sola Scriptura is the belief that Scripture alone is our [i]infallible[/i] standard by which all doctrines are to be judged. It does not hold that one cannot look to fallible (i.e. Tradition) for help on how to interpret the Scriptures, but only that these sources cannot contradict Scripture.

[ICTHUS]

Question:

My opponent said this

[quote]Also, we cannot say that Mary is mother of us all, because the Church takes that role.  Christ is the Husband, the Church is the Bride, and in this comparison, we can say that we, the children of God, are nurtured by both Christ, and His body, the Church.  Mary simply does not factor into this anywhere.[/quote]

Any takers?