Do You Support The Charismatic Renewal In The Chur

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Not that anyone really cares what I think, I find the charismatic movement irreverent and partially responsible for some of the reverence problems many parishes are experiencing today. However, I'm not going to debate this with anyone as I don't have the time nor the inclination to.

Just felt like saying my peace.

Pax Christi ya'll.

[qfnol31]

I care what you think.

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 12 2004, 03:36 PM'] That may be why you don't hear much about the Charismatic's anymore, if you stifle people, and try to control the Holy Spirit, He has this strange way of fixing things Himself, it would seem.
[/quote]
Bruce, I don't think I understand where you're "going" with that statement. Stifling [i]people[/i] and trying to control the [i]Holy Spirit[/i] are two different things. The Catholic Church does not think that she can control the Holy Spirit, and she does not try to control the Holy Spirit. However, if she believes that a movement may be dangerous, I, personally, would not question her judgment in keeping the movement as small as possibly until she can look into it further. That being said, she certainly does not mean to drive anyone away because she is cautious about a movement.

[qfnol31]

One thing I haven't been able to find is a quote where the Holy Father actually condones the Charismatic Movement. I know that he is for a renewal of the Holy Spirit in our Church, but does anyone realize how often we actually call upon Him in a traditional Mass? First of all we begin and end in the name of the Father, Son, and [i]Holy Spirit[/i]. However later, during the most important part of the Mass we call upon Him once again. The priest says these or similar words (depending on which Eucharistic Prayer he uses): "Lord send your Spirit upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become for us the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ."

So many people claim that the Holy Spirit isn't present, or they can't feel Him in traditional Masses (my mom has mentioned this before), but He is part of the most precious gift we have!!!!! It's through the Holy Spirit that Jesus becomes present in His Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity!!! How is it that the Holy Spirit isn't present? He helps give us the most awesome gift that we can receive!!!



[color=purple]edited to say:[/color] I don't think that the Holy Spirit has ever left the Church in anyway, but rather our awareness of Him. Today we look so much to our senses to find God in our life, but that just can't work. Think of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. All our senses cry out against Him being there...but if we turn our hearts towards Him, we see Him. Is the same not true for the Holy Spirit?

When people say that they can't feel the Holy Spirit I now question if it's because they're looking with their senses and not with their hearts?

Edited June 14, 2004 by qfnol31

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jun 12 2004, 05:43 PM'] I know of so many new converts to the Church of late teens and young 20 somethings out of many non-Catholic churches who are in love with this movement [/quote]
Just a note that came to me when I was reading your response, M.SIGGA.

The Charismatic Renewal is a classic example of New Evangelization. I love New Evangelization, but it cannot sustain on its own. The purpose of New Evangelization is to draw people into the Church so that older, more traditional ways can be revealed and embraced by the people that were drawn in. This is like the OT and the NT. "The New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament, and the Old becomes clear in the New." - Dei Verbum, the Vat. Council II. Now, let's look at this in terms of New Evangelization and "Old" Evangelization, since I don't have a better term for it.

New Evangelization can draw you in, but it cannot sustain. If I fall in love with a Catholic T-shirt or a retreat, I've brought myself closer to Christ - but the Word hasn't taken root. I [i]need[/i] some of the traditional, "Old" Evangelization to keep me strong in the Faith - Mass, the Sacraments, etc. Obviously, the Charismatic Renewal includes traditions, but perhaps its main purpose should be to draw people in. Perhaps it cannot sustain on its own. Honestly, I don't know enough about the renewal to say. But this is what some of us mean by contemplating, say, the Pope's support of the renewal. In the beginning of this paragraph I mentioned New Evangelization through a Catholic T-shirt. Well, the same idea applies with the Pope's support of the renewal. Would he ever condemn a Catholic T-shirt? No! But does that mean that you can substitute a T-shirt for a tradition? 'Course not. So, is he going to condemn the renewal? No! But does that mean that the renewal on its own can keep a person strong in the Faith? Perhaps it can, but we should be careful... just a thought.

Edited June 14, 2004 by voiciblanche

[crusader1234]

I'm a teenager, and I'm not quite sure what you mean by Charismatic Renewal, but I do think that some of the stuff is getting tacky. If you mean the introduction of the new types of singing and even dancing in some cases, then count me out... I'd rather go to a concert. If you mean Charismatic Renewal as in getting people to be more into their faith, sure. If you mean turning Church into some sort of party? I'd rather burn my Bob Dylan records.

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 14 2004, 02:44 AM'] If you mean turning Church into some sort of party? I'd rather burn my Bob Dylan records. [/quote]
I love that, Rich.

[qfnol31]

I'm gonna quote different people throughout this and post my thoughts and opinions:

[quote name='shinobininjasp' date='Jun 12 2004, 06:24 AM']As someone who is converting to Catholicism from a charismatic Methodist church, I love the charismatic movement. For me, it makes it a little easier for me to relate, and I love the charismatic Catholic Church I attend now, even though, by my old church's standards, it's far from being ultra charismatic. It seems this church has compromised, giving the parisheners some charismatic elements and some traditional elements, and I think it works.[/quote]

I read somewhere that the Novus Ordo Mass was supposed to help with the differences between the Protestants and Catholics...I personally am not a fan of the Charismatic Renewal being the deciding factor for conversion. A person who comes to the Catholic Church accepts all that She (Holy Mother Church) holds to be true. Granted the Holy Spirit is what helps draw these souls in, but I don't think that the Church should give in to all wants of the members...if that were so, we'd eventually have gay marriages and women priests...

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jun 12 2004, 05:43 PM']It strengthens love for the Eucharist which is the coolest I think and i think this is a really big reason there is such a surge right now of so many new young folks comming into the Church even though there is so much bad press in the U.S. at least where I live. Sometimes I think there are more Protestants sitting in the back of Catholic Churches than Catholic people lol - but I know the CCR isn't the only reason of course.[/quote]

I agree with some of this, but I see it become distracting equally as often. I've been to places where during Adoration people do different things that are very distracting. Though I won't elaborate very much, I personally feel it took away from Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. My church isn't Charismatic at all and we have one of the largest parishes in the area with hundreds of youth who are active in many ways. Of course the Holy Spirit was behind this! Though I don't think it took the movement for that to happen...

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 12 2004, 10:39 PM']Eucharistic Adoration isn't what BUILT Christianity, and won't rebuild it either[/quote]

I dunno, the Catholic Church is larger than any other religion, and it's about the only Church that practices Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

One last comment real fast, or actually more of a question. Is it possible that the Charismatic Movement takes away focus from where the Holy Spirit is already present to us?

[P3chrmd]

I never knew how many people were torn between this issue

My opinion...The Holy Fathers approval is the only one I need! All other opinions don't really matter.....

I'm not talking about you guys...but in general...for any subject...if the Holy Father gives on ok...thats all I need!

God Bless!

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jun 14 2004, 03:36 AM']



I read somewhere that the Novus Ordo Mass was supposed to help with the differences between the Protestants and Catholics...I personally am not a fan of the Charismatic Renewal being the deciding factor for conversion. A person who comes to the Catholic Church accepts all that She (Holy Mother Church) holds to be true. Granted the Holy Spirit is what helps draw these souls in, but I don't think that the Church should give in to all wants of the members...if that were so, we'd eventually have gay marriages and women priests...
[/quote]
I hope no one thought I was saying I only decided to become Catholic because they have a charismatic movement and that's what I'm used to. I would join the Catholic Church regardless, because I love it, it just makes the transition a little easier for me this way.

[p0lar_bear]

I find the fact that I am being accused me of misquoting the Holy Father very offensive. Offer proof or stop accusing me.

Yianni,

I never said these quotes were specifically regarding the gift of tongues. I quoted them to demonstrate the Holy Father's support of the charismatic renewal. The gift of tongues (and prayer tongues) are considered to be normal parts of the charismatic renewal.

qfnol31,

In 1979, Pope John Paul II told charismatic leaders meeting in Rome, “I am convinced that this movement is a sign of the Spirit’s action …. a very important component in the total renewal of the Church.”

Oh, and when the Holy Father refers to "charisms" or "extraordinary charism" or "extraordinary gifts," he is referring to what is also called the "charismatic gifts."

Many people have obviously had some bad person experiences with the movement, and I can appreciate that. I have seen very messed up groups calling themselves charismatic. That is why two of my three original posts were about discernment. I purposely included statements about how authentic forms of the renewal take place fully within the context of the Church. I have seen the renewal lead people to more frequent Eucharistic Adoration, to take advantage of regular Confession, to attend daily Mass, tp read the Bible more, and develop a deeper prayer life.

If a charismatic group refuses to submitt itself to the authority of the bishop or claims the inspiriation of the Holy Spirit in defying the Church, that group is not in line with the Holy Spirit.

[Apotheoun]

Although I still don't accept the distinction that some people are making between [i]speaking in tongues[/i] and [i]praying in tongues[/i], I will forego any further discussion of this topic. I have no desire to offend anyone, and I think that this thread has become too divisive, so I will refrain from posting any further comments in it.

I'd like to thank everyone for the information that they supplied.

God bless.

[Jake Huether]

Charisms are gifts. And the Charismatic movement began in order to get people to realize that the Spirit is in the Church and has gifts to give. It is a movement for those people who need to be taught about how to recieve these gifts, although many here at the Phorum already have them and use them.

As with all things there are abuses. But the Charismatic movement, at it's root, is only a movement to get us back to where the Apostles began. Within the context of Catholic Teaching, this is a great thing.

[P3chrmd]

Thank you JAKE!

[IXpenguin21]