p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I'm not sure if this is the whole speech... [url="http://www.catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/movement98.htm"]http://www.catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/movement98.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 The quotations from the Holy Father and the other prelates supplied by p0lar_bear are in many cases quite beautiful, but none of the quotations address the point at issue, that is, the distinction that some are claiming should be made between the socalled gift of [i]speaking in tongues[/i] and the alleged gift of [i]praying in tongues[/i]. This distinction has no support in sacred scripture or in the tradition of the Church, and there appears to be no definitive statement, i.e, no [i]de fide tenenda[/i] or [i]de fide credenda[/i] pronouncement, supporting this claim by the ecclesiastical Magisterium. That the Pope and others have said, for lack of a better word, "nice" things about the various Charismatic groups in the Church is not the same as a definitive statement of the Magisterium binding all Catholics to believe in a theological distinction between [i]speaking in tongues[/i] and [i]praying in tongues[/i]. That was the point of my previous posts, simply to emphasize this important theological fact, and not to deny that there have been general statments made by members of the hierarchy that say good things about Charismatics. I have no problem with people who wish to pray in tongues in private, or do any number of other spiritual exercises that deepen their communion with God, but I do desire fidelity to the theological tradition of the Church. There are elements present within the theology of the Charismatic movement that make me uneasy, because some of the concepts have their origin in Protestant Pentecostalism. Now, I have no desire to offend anyone, but as a person who is studying theology, I take all of these issues quite seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Apotheoun, The intent of my posts was to provide general information and support for the charismatic renewal in the Church. It was not about the distinction between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. As I said, I will see what I have on that subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 (edited) Yiannii, this is from the Catechism for you: [quote]2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit" (cf. LG, 12). Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church (cf. I Cor. 12). [/quote] [quote]951 Communion of charisms. Within the communion of the Church, the Holy Spirit "distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank" for the building up of the Church (LG 12.2) Now, "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good" (I Cor. 12:7). [/quote] From Lumen Gentium 12: [quote]It is not only through the sacraments and the ministries of the Church that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God and enriches it with virtues, but, "allotting his gifts to everyone according as He wills,(114) He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. By these gifts He makes them fit and ready to undertake the various tasks and offices which contribute toward the renewal and building up of the Church, according to the words of the Apostle: "The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit".(115) These charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.(116)[/quote] Edited June 13, 2004 by p0lar_bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I just don't see how speeking/praying in tongues helps any one delve deeper into their spiritual life. When talking in tongues one gets awsome sensations but I believe it leaves one with an expectation of the spiritual world which will never be met and sustained. Countless Protestant friends of mine have stopped going to their church because they no longer got the feelings they used to get. Would you get Catholics no longer going to Mass because it's not as exciting as a charismatic service? How does the charismatic movement help one appreciate the Mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote]The intent of my posts was to provide general information and support for the charismatic renewal in the Church. It was not about the distinction between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. As I said, I will see what I have on that subject.[/quote] Thank you, I appreciate your consideration in this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 p0lar_bear out of your two quotes from the CCC only this section refers specifically to talking in tongues. [quote]sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues [/quote] The second quote you used, while discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, has nothing to do with tongues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote name='yiannii' date='Jun 13 2004, 11:34 AM'] I just don't see how speeking/praying in tongues helps any one delve deeper into their spiritual life. When talking in tongues one gets awsome sensations but I believe it leaves one with an expectation of the spiritual world which will never be met and sustained. Countless Protestant friends of mine have stopped going to their church because they no longer got the feelings they used to get. Would you get Catholics no longer going to Mass because it's not as exciting as a charismatic service? How does the charismatic movement help one appreciate the Mass? [/quote] What if I were to say "I just don't see how levitation helps anyone delve deeper into their spiritual life. When levitating one gets awesome senations, but I believe it leaves one with an expectation of the spiritual world which will never be met and sustained." The fact that you do not understand the benefit of speaking in tongues, does not mean it is not authentic or does not have benefits. Also, I already said that the gifts should not be sought so much as the Giver. There is danger is seeking the charismatic gifts or any spiritual experience for their own sake. That does not invalidate the gifts or experiences. If someone is willing to give up the truth for the sake of the experiences, they have lost focus. However, the experiences can help us draw closer to God and build up the whole community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jun 14 2004, 01:49 AM'] What if I were to say "I just don't see how levitation helps anyone delve deeper into their spiritual life. When levitating one gets awesome senations, but I believe it leaves one with an expectation of the spiritual world which will never be met and sustained." The fact that you do not understand the benefit of speaking in tongues, does not mean it is not authentic or does not have benefits. Also, I already said that the gifts should not be sought so much as the Giver. There is danger is seeking the charismatic gifts or any spiritual experience for their own sake. That does not invalidate the gifts or experiences. If someone is willing to give up the truth for the sake of the experiences, they have lost focus. However, the experiences can help us draw closer to God and build up the whole community. [/quote] What is levitating? In my experience and others, talking in tongues is almost forced onto one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 If you are reffering to Adoration, you don't get feelings the first time, it comes after much hard work. Talking in tongues seems to be some sort of instant fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Levitating? It's...well...floating. It's not very common (kind of up there with bi-locating), but its when a person goes into ecstacy in prayer and ...floats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 LOL I thought so... I'm guessing here but a person who could levitate would obviously very advanced with their prayer life...hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 In most cases, but not necessarily. I think it was St. John Bosco who had a number of boys at his school who would levitate...I don't think one would have considered them exceptionally advanced... But, the point was that your statement wasn't logical (i.e. I don't understand it's benefits therefore it must not be true). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 That wasn't my point at all. You seem to read one thing and get a totally different message. You were doing the same thing with the CCC in earlier posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jun 12 2004, 05:43 PM'] I'm in France right now ... and they hold hands here too [/quote] The USCCB and Vatican have both warned against holding hands during the Pater Noster (Our Father) in the Mass for different reasons...One of which it causes a false sense of unity in the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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