yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I feel like it's too fuzzy wuzzy and the people generally have to be coached into "talking in tongues." Does anyone know the regulations on talking in tongues? I was reading Romans (I think, could have been another letter from St Paul) and I got the impression that they were to "speak" only one at a time and there had to be an interpreter to interpret the language the person was talking; it wasn't supposed to be just babble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3chrmd Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Speaking in tongues and praying in tongues are two VERY different things, and often confused! Speaking in tongues in when you are moved by the Holy Spirt and start to speak a language of this earth but that you do not know at all...such as chinese or greek or latin, ect...and when speaking in tounges there NEEDS to be someone there to translate or it is pointless! Praying in tongues is when you are moved by the Holy Spirit to speak a language not of this earth that makes no since to anyone...(this is more common)...the whole thing is just to praise God...so when praying in tongues there does NOT have to be anyone there to translate..because no one except for God knows what you are saying...you are just praising his name in a tounge that only he understands! So...speaking in tongues...YES A TRANSLATOR NEEDS TO BE THERE...praying in tongues...NO TRANSLATOR NEEDS TO BE THERE I believe the difference between these two acts are talked about in 1 Cor. 12 & 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote name='P3chrmd' date='Jun 13 2004, 04:35 PM'] Speaking in tongues and praying in tongues are two VERY different things, and often confused! Speaking in tongues in when you are moved by the Holy Spirt and start to speak a language of this earth but that you do not know at all...such as chinese or greek or latin, ect...and when speaking in tounges there NEEDS to be someone there to translate or it is pointless! Praying in tongues is when you are moved by the Holy Spirit to speak a language not of this earth that makes no since to anyone...(this is more common)...the whole thing is just to praise God...so when praying in tongues there does NOT have to be anyone there to translate..because no one except for God knows what you are saying...you are just praising his name in a tounge that only he understands! So...speaking in tongues...YES A TRANSLATOR NEEDS TO BE THERE...praying in tongues...NO TRANSLATOR NEEDS TO BE THERE I believe the difference between these two acts are talked about in 1 Cor. 12 & 14 [/quote] Thank you very much for outlining the two different types of "tongues." I didn't know this. Where can I find the Church's teaching on the Charasimatic movement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 St. Paul does not make a distinction between [i]speaking in tongues[/i] and [i]praying in tongues[/i], because in both cases he indicates that there must be an interpreter, or the things spoken or prayed, will not edify. Here is the gist of his argument: if a man prays in a tongue that no one understands, how can anyone say "Amen" to his prayer? Praying in a tongue that is unknown, without anyone to interpret what is said, is to pray in an unintelligible sense, and thus it is unfruitful for the mind. That is why he says that those who speak or pray in a tongue need an interpreter, so that he may not only pray with the spirit, but with his mind also. 1 Corinthians 14:6-19 Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how shall I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will any one know what is played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves; if you in a tongue utter speech that is not intelligible, how will any one know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning; but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. Therefore, he who [i]speaks in a tongue[/i] should pray for the power to interpret. For if I [i]pray in a tongue[/i], my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all; nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3chrmd Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Well I disagree with that...yes if you are speaking a language that is of this earth...there needs to be someone to interpret...or if you are standing in front of a congrigation and start to speak in tongues then there needs to be someone to interpret! But if you are simply praising God in your own prayer...then there DOES NOT need to be a translator! I saw an episode on this on EWTN and it SPECIFICALLY said that there is a difference between praying and speaking in tongues! Just what I personally believe I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote]Well I disagree with that...yes if you are speaking a language that is of this earth...there needs to be someone to interpret...or if you are standing in front of a congrigation and start to speak in tongues then there needs to be someone to interpret! But if you are simply praising God in your own prayer...then there DOES NOT need to be a translator! I saw an episode on this on EWTN and it SPECIFICALLY said that there is a difference between praying and speaking in tongues! Just what I personally believe I guess.[/quote] My point was simply this, nowhere does St. Paul say that the interpretation of tongues is unnecessary, whether the speech involved is "tongues of men" or "tongues of angels." Therefore I feel compelled to reiterate my original point, which was that in any public setting there must always be interpreters, but certainly how you pray in private is your own business. As it concerns the program you saw on EWTN, I can only respond by saying that the views expressed there are only authoritative if they represent accurately the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church. On this topic I know of no definitive decision by the Magisterium which would support the contention that there is a difference between [i]speaking in tongues[/i] and [i]praying in tongues[/i]. If there is a definitive teaching on this matter, as a faithful son of the Church, I will humbly submit to correction by the Magisterium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote]If there is a definitive teaching on this matter, as a faithful son of the Church, I will humbly submit to correction by the Magisterium. [/quote] Amen brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 From previous threads on the matter: The Charismatic Renewal is not something new in the Church, which is why it is called a renewal. What is now called the charismatic movement and what are now called the charismatic gifts have always been part of the life of the Church and are especially evident in the lives of exceptionally holy persons, i.e. saints. The current movement is to encourage awareness in the reality of these gifts and a devotion to the Holy Spirit. Prayer tongues are different from the gift of tongues that requires an interpreter. If someone is going to speak to the group, as with a message for the group, there does need to be an interpreter there or the group is not edified. However, prayer tongues can be used without interpreters. Either way, these are always real languages, not gibberish, that the speaker does not know. There have been cases where someone who knows an obscure language hears someone praying in tongues and recognizes the language. It can also be a language that is no longer used or is known by only a few people. While many people do maintain that most if not all people should have a prayer tongue, I disagree with them. However, everyone should be open to it. Everyone should be open to whatever the Lord wants to give them and especially to the movement of the Holy Spirit. It is important that charismatic groups, as well as any other group, remains fully under the spiritual direction of the Church. Any group that contradicts the Church or defies the legitimate authority of Her ministers is no longer following the Holy Spirit. There are dangers with this, as there are with any movement. However, if the people are properly catechized and guided on the existence and proper use of the "charismatic" gifts, there is a great benefit to be had not only by those participating, but also by the whole Church. Both the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger have made statements in favor of the current movement. It is inappropriate, then, for any of the faithful to maintain that the movement is outside of or contrary to the Church. Devotion to the Holy Spirit is devotion to God. We should be no less eager to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit than we are to have one with the Father or the Son. In fact, I would go so far as to say that devotion to the Holy Spirit is required by the faith (something that cannot be said, btw, of Marian devotion). If one has a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit and is open to everything He offers, it seems likely that he will experience a baptism of the Holy Spirit, and receive at least one of the "charismatic" gifts. (That does not mean that it will necessarily be a dramatic event, as often happens within the Charismatic Renewal Movement.) There may be those that God, in His infinite wisdom, chooses not to give any of the "charismatic" gifts. However, I think that the evidence presented by the saints does indicate that the presence of "charismatic" gifts is not outside the norm for a life of holiness. In a May 30, 1998 audience, the Holy Father said: [quote]The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church's constitution. They contribute although differently to the life, renewal, and sanctification of God's People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church's charismatic dimension that before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclecial movements and new communities. [/quote] [quote]Today I would like to cry out to all of you gather here in St. Peter's Square and to all Christians: Open yourselves docily to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us! [/quote] [quote]It is essential...that every movement submit to the discernment fo the competent ecclesiastical authority. For this reason no charism can dispense with reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church. The Council wrote in clear words: 'Those who have charge over the Church should judge the genuiness and proper use of these gifts, through their office not indeed to extinquish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good (cf. 1 Thes 5:12; 19-21) (Lumen Gentium, no. 12). This is the necessary guarantee that you are taking the right road. [/quote] See also his June 24, 1992 General Audience. [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...19920624en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...19920624en.html[/url] In their 1997 document "Grace for the New Springtime," the USCCB discussed, and affirmed the Charismatic Renewal. The only quote I already have typed out from the document is regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit: [quote]As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons of the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian’s life. There is new life and a new conscious awareness of God’s power and presence. It is a grace experience which touches every dimension of the Church’s life: worship, preaching, teaching, ministry, evangelism, prayer and spirituality, service and community. Because of this, it is our conviction that baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life. [/quote] Cardinal Ratzinger's statement is in "The Ratzinger Report." It is a passing mention of new ecclesial movements that are to be commended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Though the Church has affirmed the legitimacy of the charismatic gifts, not all manifestations are authentic. While it is important to be open to the Spirit, it is also important to discern the true origin of these experiences. The Apostle John warns us, “do no believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 Jn 4:1). We must test these gifts to discern whether they are from the person, the devil, or God. The discernment of spirits is often listed as a charismatic gift because the Spirit helps us to recognize something as from God or from another source. Discerning between authentic and inauthentic manifestations can be difficult, especially for someone not acquainted with the manifestations of charismatic gifts. Several keys can aid in the discernment of spirits. Matthew 12:33 tells us “a tree is known by its fruit.” Looking at the fruit of the message and at the fruit of the gift in the life of the person can be telling. The personal sanctity of the person is not an absolute measure. Just as God used Balaam to bless the Israelites and proclaim them as the Chosen People (Num. 22), sinners and unbelievers can receive charismatic gifts. On the other hand, a holy person may mistake his or her own zealousness and emotional responses for authentic gifts. However, those involved with authentic gifts should be drawn into the heart of the Church. Disunity or disobedience to the Church in the name of the Spirit is a contradiction; such a message is not authentic. The Holy Spirit does not lead people into sin, but rather to the Light. The desire of the person seeking these gifts should also be consistent with the teachings of the Church. The gifts should not be sought so much as the Giver. Authentic gifts are not forms of divination or fortune-telling, and should not be sought as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 In discussing the "charismatic gifts," the Holy Father affirms their existence and the need for discernment" [quote]It should be noted that the charisms require discernment, especially in the case of extraordinary charisms. This discernment is given by the same Holy Spirit, who guides the intellect along the way of truth and wisdom. Since the whole ecclesial community has been placed by Christ under the leadership of the ecclesiastical authority, this latter is responsible for judging the value and authenticity of the charisms. The Council says: "Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good (cf. 1 Thess 5:12, 19-21)" (LG 12). Some generally followed criteria of discernment can be indicated both by the ecclesiastical authority or by spiritual masters and directors: a) Agreement with the Church's faith in Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Cor 12:3). A gift of the Holy Spirit cannot be contrary to the faith which the same Spirit inspires in the whole Church. "This is how," St. John writes, "you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God" (1 Jn 4:2). b) The presence of the "fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace" (Gal 5:22). Every gift of the Spirit fosters growth in love, both in the person himself and in the community, and thus it produces joy and peace. If a charism causes trouble and confusion, this means either that it is not genuine or that it has not been used in the right way. As St. Paul says: "He is not the God of disorder but of peace" (1 Cor 14:33). Without love, even the most extraordinary charisms are not at all useful (cf. 1 Cor 13:1-3; cf. also Mt 7:22-23). c) Conformity with the Church's authority and acceptance of its directives. After laying down very strict rules for using charisms in the Church of Corinth, St. Paul says: "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the Lord" (1 Cor 14:37). The authentic charismatic is recognized by his sincere docility to the pastors of the Church. A charism cannot cause rebellion or a rupture of unity. d) The use of charisms in the community is subject to a simple rule: "Everything should be done for building up" (1 Cor 14:26). That is, charisms are accepted to the extent that they make a constructive contribution to the life of the community, a life of union with God and of fraternal communion. St. Paul insists firmly on this rule (1 Cor 14:4-5, 12, 18-19, 26-32). (from his June 24, 1992 General Audience, available at [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...9920624en.html)"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...9920624en.html)[/url] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I think I have more on the distinction between prayer tongues and the tongues that require interpretation, but not on this computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote]Today I would like to cry out to all of you gather here in St. Peter's Square and to all Christians: Open yourselves docily to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us! [/quote] The gifts of the Holy Spirit have nothing to do with talking in tongues. I doubt very much that this quote here has anything to do with talking in tongues. In the Catechisim the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit are defined as: [quote]1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David.109 They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations. 1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: "charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity."[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 (edited) Yiannii, In the context of the speech, the Holy Father was referring to the charismatic gifts (though not specifically speaking in tongues). If I get really bored next week, I might type out the whole thing for you....not likely...maybe I can find it online... :leave: :pebcam: Oh, and please don't accuse me of misquoting the Holy Father unless you have real evidence. Edited June 13, 2004 by p0lar_bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I have been looking up charisms in the CCC but I can't find anything to do with talking in tongues, rather relating to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and how can be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 What was the topic of the speech anyway? LOL I don't blame you for not wanting to type out his speech, they are like books...LOL GB JP2! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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