Bruce S Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 (edited) [quote]From the outset of the [Charismatic] renewal [they/Bishops] were skeptical at best, and eventually became hardened in their resistance - like a dam across a river. Because it posed a threat to their doctrines and traditions, they sought to discredit and/or ignore it. Rather than affirm the charismatics in their midst, they gave this advice "keep it quiet, keep it personal, make it optional, don't promote it." In other words, maybe it will just go away after awhile! The result? Charismatics often became colonies of spiritual lepers. [/quote] Or they left. My local church, over 1,000 families, are MOSTLY Charismatics who left the Catholic Church. That may be why you don't hear much about the Charismatic's anymore, if you stifle people, and try to control the Holy Spirit, He has this strange way of fixing things Himself, it would seem. It was a flower in the Catholic Church that wasn't watered, or fertilized. Edited June 12, 2004 by Bruce S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amarkich Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 I am at the Deacon's house, interestingly enough, but I will leave a brief comment. I stand with the most holy Father Hardon on this issue. He said that these "gifts" were not from God but from the Devil (the gifts of certain Saints throughout history are to be distinguished between those of the blasphemous, modern "speaking in tongues" which was replaced by Gregorian Chant). In any event, a friend of mine knows someone who truly can "interpret tongues." He went to a charismatic "mass" (i.e., Mess) and heard mostly mumbling which was made up by the "speaker" and by the others, great blasphemies against God and the Saints. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 yup i'm all about it and it is really really really strong in louisiana, especially among the youth - we even have a couple charismatic bishops. i also here it is starting to boom in the Southwest and the Westcoast, where Lifeteen began. It strengthens love for the Eucharist which is the coolest I think and i think this is a really big reason there is such a surge right now of so many new young folks comming into the Church even though there is so much bad press in the U.S. at least where I live. Sometimes I think there are more Protestants sitting in the back of Catholic Churches than Catholic people lol - but I know the CCR isn't the only reason of course. I know of so many new converts to the Church of late teens and young 20 somethings out of many non-Catholic churches who are in love with this movement and the Stuebenville Movement i think is the strongest one that has won the most converts where I live. If you've never been to a Charismatic Eucharistic Adoration i really suggest going, and especially if it's at a Steubenville Conference. It's taught me to grow in love of my Faith in Christ and understand His neverending and eternal Love and fidelity to His faithful and His Church. Plus the Pope likes it, eh? I'm in France right now ... and they hold hands here too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 12 2004, 04:36 PM'] Or they left. My local church, over 1,000 families, are MOSTLY Charismatics who left the Catholic Church. [/quote] That's why I am against it. It started with the protestants and will end with them as well, though for different reasons than our good friend Bruce would like us to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archbishop 10-K Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Can someone please explain to me what the charismatic revival is, and/or what a charismatic Catholic is? If it means using upbeat pop/rock music in Mass, or calling for any liturgical abuses whatsoever, then of course I'm against. As a semi-traditionalist, I prefer the kind of Mass that freaks your run-of-the-mill evangelical Protestant out. Latin, Gregorian chant, and getting heavy on sacrifice and atonement of sins, w00t! Seriously, though, IMO, when you walk into a Catholic Mass, it should be distinctively Catholic. I like the medieval flair to it. The modernist worship services at my mom's church bore the heck out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 The Books of Acts, ALIVE NOW. Eucharistic Adoration isn't what BUILT Christianity, and won't rebuild it either. What worked THEN, the outpouring of a VIBRANT, Holy Spirit, did it then, and has done it before, and is doing it now in Africa and Asia. There they understand Charismatics, they ARE almost ALL Charismatic where the world of Christianity is growing and converting the heathens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Jun 12 2004, 02:47 PM'] As I understand it, for the past several hundred years only the holiest of the saints have been given true spiritual gifts. But then in the 60s Catholics standed getting them en masse after learning from Pentecostals. Something is wrong here. [/quote] I think that's a bit unfair. That would be true, though, if the early Christians in Acts were Pentecostal. But they're weren't. They were Catholic. Charismatic Catholics are just renewing what the Catholics of old did. God bless, Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I don't have any problems with the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church in essence. The Pope has no problems with it, so that's a plus. I've read objections against it, and and it doesn't seem that many objections against it are valid. On the other hand, however, there can be excesses and abuses within the Charismatic Movement. Sometimes, I feel as though too much of an emphasis is placed on speaking in tongues and in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. To me, they can perhaps be a bit overly ecumenical to the point where some leave the Catholic Church for more like-minded "fellowship" and emotional worship. There are many devout Charismatic Catholics who are passionately in love with God and the Catholic Church. Those I know personally have strong devotions to Catholicism. I have nothing against the Charismatic Movement in essence (I am obviously against abuses and excess), but it's just not my cup of tea, personally. If it works for other Catholics, that's great. It's just not my thing. God bless, Jennifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archbishop 10-K Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I repeat, what is the charismatic revival and what is a charismatic Catholic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote name='Archbishop 10-K' date='Jun 13 2004, 01:00 AM'] I repeat, what is the charismatic revival and what is a charismatic Catholic? [/quote] Perhaps a Charismatic Catholic can answer your question for you in-depth, but I'll take a stab at it. Keep in mind, however, that I'm not a Charismatic Catholic, so my knowledge is limited. The Charismatic Renewal started in the 60s or 70s, and I think it was partially influenced by Pentecostalism. But, in actuality, it's based on the way the early Catholics acted in Acts. Charismatic Catholics place a high premium on speaking and praying in tongues. They often incorporate this into their prayer lives. They also claim to interpret tongues and prophesy. Sometimes, you'll see a Charismatic Catholic ask the Holy Spirit for guidance in reading the Scriptures to find an answer for some personal problem or whatnot. They'll, then, randomly open the Bible and see what Scripture passage they got. They often have Baptisms in the Holy Spirit. I don't know too much about this, though. They often lay hands on others when they pray, and it's not too unusual for them to get "slain in the Spirit," i.e., get totally overcome by the Holy Spirit that they fall down. A lot of the times, Charismatics are quite emotional in worship. They'll sway their arms back and forth, and sometimes they cry. They're usually head over heels in love with God and the Church -- and they're pretty open and vocal about it. There can be abuses in this movement, though. I mentioned some of them in one of my posts on this thread. God bless, Jennifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey's_Girl Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Well, I can't speak for Charismatic Catholics (never been to a mass with them), but I disagree with the comment that all "gifts" (such as speaking in tongues or interpreting) are "of the devil". I say that because I've had one experience (myself) with speaking in tongues, and one with interpreting. It was the Holy Spirit, not the devil. I know the difference, particularly when it's in my own heart. Of course, since I'm a Protestant, some people wouldn't believe that I could know the difference. In any case, my understanding is that glossolalia ("speaking in tongues") happens in many different religions. I think it is probably one of the modes in which people relate to God. I can't see that it's any "weirder" than any of our other interactions with the supernatural...although it's not something that I'd be looking to do all the time. Acts 2 is often cited as scriptural reference. I don't know what the Catholic church teaches about interpretation of those incidents of baptism/speaking in tongues, but on the face of them, I can see where people get the idea that it's a good thing to do. That said, there is much abuse and falsity floating around regarding the Charismatic movement (at least, for Protestants, and I'm assuming for Catholics too) so it's something to be cautious about. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. (Thanks to those who urge moderation.) MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote name='Mickey's_Girl' date='Jun 13 2004, 01:10 AM'] That said, there is much abuse and falsity floating around regarding the Charismatic movement (at least, for Protestants, and I'm assuming for Catholics too) so it's something to be cautious about. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. (Thanks to those who urge moderation.) [/quote] Good points. Despite abuses, there is a lot of good springing from the Charismatic Movement. But, since there can be abuses, caution and moderation are key things to keep in mind. God bless, Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey's_Girl Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 [quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jun 12 2004, 11:08 PM'] Sometimes, you'll see a Charismatic Catholic ask the Holy Spirit for guidance in reading the Scriptures to find an answer for some personal problem or whatnot. They'll, then, randomly open the Bible and see what Scripture passage they got. They often have Baptisms in the Holy Spirit. [/quote] Not sure how it works in the Charismatic Catholic movement, but in the Assemblies of God, the random-Bible-opening thing is not encouraged as a regular practice. We do, however, generally ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance for scripture interpretation in general (no flames on my Protestantism, please; I'm just informing). Also, the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is considered to be a one-time event. After you "get saved" and are baptized in water, then you pray and ask the Holy Spirit to give you this, and the "initial evidence" that this has happened is your speaking in tongues. These three events (saved, water baptism, baptism of the HS) do not usually come right away after each other. It depends on the person's situation. A person might be "filled with the Spirit" at different times (in other words, be given a specific gift for a specific time, such as speaking in tongues or interpreting), but the "baptism" is a one-time thing. I'm sorry if it's not clear enough; my own belief in the practice is sort of mixed at this point, so I'm not being the best apologist for it. More info: [url="http://ag.org/top/beliefs/baptism_hs/baptmhs_00_questions.cfm"]AG "Baptism of the Holy Spirit"[/url] MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Hi MG, Thanks for sharing your knowledge of how that is practised in your denomination. God bless, Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey's_Girl Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Thanks! It's nice to be useful once in a while. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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