Consecrated virgins/hermits and the selfish single life

[oremus1]

 

Let us not forget, married people are witnesses too. how long is their "formation" in the vocation of matrimony? sometimes, several monthly meetings over 6 months. sometimes. one weekend of 'marriage encounter'.

[God's Beloved]

Dear Oremus1,

Let us not 'limit' the vocation of CV to the spousal dimension.  There are three aspects to the charism.  "a virgin to keep the faith whole and entire, a bride to be one with him forever; and a mother to raise up the family of the Church." ( homily in the rite).  The candidate needs to understand and be prepared to receive the grace of the Holy Spirit in these areas.  Formation in all three aspects is important although one or the other aspect may be more developed in a CV according to her personality, God's gift and choice, and the needs of the local Church community.  The dimension of virginity shines in youth, spousal life matures by middle age through times of testing ( good times and bad, sickness and health) and motherhood although it begins in youth- is at its perfection in old age, with its wisdom.  No candidate can develop these qualities overnight or through some crash course of understanding the vocation 'intellectually'.

The ordinary way God uses to form us in Christian life and Consecrated life is through Mother Church.  Receiving a formation of the heart through the agency of the Holy Spirit alone cannot be ruled out but is an extra-ordinary means God is free to choose.  In fact a CV herself is called to play this role of the Church as Mother, to form her children in the faith.  How can a CV do this if she herself is not formed as a teacher?  CV is a very difficult vocation in today's world.  It is so unique, beautiful and deep; it can do so much good to the Church that having well formed CV living the vocation qualitatively is very important.  This task of discernment and formation should be a heavy burden happily borne by bishops for the good of the Church.

No doubt a pious woman who prays a lot and does ordinary tasks in the Church may feel the call.  It is upto the bishop to decide as every individual is unique.  However discernment of vocation involves seeing whether the candidate has the potential for the Essentials of a Charism to develop.  There cannot be a standard uniformity of formation programs for CV around the world as every diocese is different.  I myself received consecration at a very young age.  Then while I was working for my diocese  I also studied theology.  I prayed while traveling.  It was difficult no doubt  but the seminarians often commented how my theology was connected with the concerns of the poor and suffering because I was in daily contact with people I served as a doctor, counselor, RCIA catechist, trainer, small christian community animator and what not.  CV is a very active life. 

The vocation to marriage is often preceded by long periods of courtship / engagement.  The Church sees the need of greater preparation in this area.  However let us not forget that married life as a lay vocation has its formation for living in the area of job/ profession etc.  The vocation of CV is one step further from Christian life.  As a leader, pastoral worker  she needs to be well formed for the vocation to shine, be accepted[ which is the most difficult problem faced by most CV] as it is so misunderstood.

 

[God's Beloved]

due to the kind of problems related to CV being treated as a fallback vocation and lack of formation before consecration,  it is even more important that leaders in the Church and experienced CV ( who have learnt lessons from their own life the hard way)  should step in and warn candidates not to fall prey to the same sins of omission by Church leaders.

I personally would prefer the Church consecrating very few women in this vocation and discerning genuine vocations qualitatively, who have the capacity of self-giving.

[oremus1]

due to the kind of problems related to CV being treated as a fallback vocation and lack of formation before consecration,  it is even more important that leaders in the Church and experienced CV ( who have learnt lessons from their own life the hard way)  should step in and warn candidates not to fall prey to the same sins of omission by Church leaders.

I personally would prefer the Church consecrating very few women in this vocation and discerning genuine vocations qualitatively, who have the capacity of self-giving.

​
There is a difference in a capacity for self giving, and having a higher education in theology.
Personally, I think the capacity for self giving and being an integrated person committing for the right reasons would actually be well established by a psychological test or even a series of interviews.
 

​
For example, if there was a pious lady who felt called to the spousal charism, but was not very intelligent. however she spend most of her free time praying, and arranging flowers in church. could she be a CV?

and at a time when many diocese see CV as burdensome, who would pay for the CV to complete the priesthood type theological training? cant see the diocese paying since there is no obligation for her to work for them, or even any theological occupation. some work as dance teachers, firefighters, accountants, doctors, teachers, all kinds of jobs.

also, if a doctor was working 80 hours a week but wanted to be a CV, how would they study a theology degree while working so many hours, and keeping her prayer schedule?

​Please answer my practical questions above and below.

Are you saying the pious lady who is very prayerful cannot be a CV because she isn't smart enough?
Who is bearing the costs of the CVs study, when she has no obligation to repay the diocese though specific works or jobs?
In the USA, it is not required for CV to have advanced theological degrees and in fact many of them do not. Are you saying the USCCB is wrong ?

[oremus1]

Also, having a theology degree is not the same as understanding the vocation intellectually. One can have even a masters in theology but still never have read Vita Consecrata.

Did St Agnes have a theology degree? St Agatha? St Cecilia? St Genevieve? Our Lady?

[God's Beloved]

Dear Oremus1

I'll be very happy if you read my comments in context.  If you read carefully, every comment of mine is not directed to your questions. We are not here to defend any theses or personal positions regarding matters related to OCV.  We are here  for sharing and solidarity in the vocation to consecrated life. 

1. By now it should be clear to you that OCV is a Diocese-based vocation.

2. While the essential elements of the vocation are clearly set by the Universal Church, it is upto the diocesan bishop to decide the peripheral matters in consultation with the candidate or CV. (you may read http://ocvnewevangelisation.blogspot.in/2015/04/essence-accidentals-of-consecrated.html )

Every context is different.  In my diocese it is fairly easy for the average person to attend a variety of courses in theology, scriptural studies, liturgy, family ministry, catechetics etc. etc. over week-ends or regular college attached to the seminary.  In other dioceses around the world it may be difficult, different...

3. I have not said that every CV should have a Masters of Doctorate in theology.  Even priests normally don't require that.  Seminaries don't merely see to intellectual but wholistic formation.  The common problem encountered by CV who do not have any formal training is that Clergy refuse to involve them as collaborators in ministry.  They prefer taking help from religious who have several years of formation.  This will make sense only to a CV who is insulted as a third class vocation or non-vocation.

4. How integrated a candidate is in her preparedness for consecration is dependent on the bishop's judgment.  Some are too happy to find cheap labor in the vocation of CV and hurry with the consecrations.

5.  Surely uneducated and pious women may be MUCH BETTER human persons and Christians.  They may be better brides of Christ in God's eyes  than maybe myself or any other woman who has received the consecration according to canon 604.  Several of the virgin-martyrs did not receive any formal consecration.  They lived and died with private or no vows, often to defend the integrity of the faith. 

So too, some women who would like to receive public consecration and live their vocation and service in the name of the Church, would do better by making private vows instead.

6. The USCCB is an episcopal conference of a country that is different from where I live.  The USACV as far as I know, is not a private or public association of the faithful in the Church.  It  is registered with the State. but has an Episcopal adviser.   Every diocese or Episcopal conference has its own criteria.  No particular Church body can claim a Monopoly on deciding how the vocation should be lived all over the world.

 

[oremus1]

Dear Oremus1

I'll be very happy if you read my comments in context.  If you read carefully, every comment of mine is not directed to your questions. We are not here to defend any theses or personal positions regarding matters related to OCV.  We are here  for sharing and solidarity in the vocation to consecrated life.

1. By now it should be clear to you that OCV is a Diocese-based vocation.

2. While the essential elements of the vocation are clearly set by the Universal Church, it is upto the diocesan bishop to decide the peripheral matters in consultation with the candidate or CV. (you may read http://ocvnewevangelisation.blogspot.in/2015/04/essence-accidentals-of-consecrated.html )

Every context is different.  In my diocese it is fairly easy for the average person to attend a variety of courses in theology, scriptural studies, liturgy, family ministry, catechetics etc. etc. over week-ends or regular college attached to the seminary.  In other dioceses around the world it may be difficult, different...

3. I have not said that every CV should have a Masters of Doctorate in theology.  Even priests normally don't require that.  Seminaries don't merely see to intellectual but wholistic formation.  The common problem encountered by CV who do not have any formal training is that Clergy refuse to involve them as collaborators in ministry.  They prefer taking help from religious who have several years of formation.  This will make sense only to a CV who is insulted as a third class vocation or non-vocation.

4. How integrated a candidate is in her preparedness for consecration is dependent on the bishop's judgment.  Some are too happy to find cheap labor in the vocation of CV and hurry with the consecrations.

5.  Surely uneducated and pious women may be MUCH BETTER human persons and Christians.  They may be better brides of Christ in God's eyes  than maybe myself or any other woman who has received the consecration according to canon 604.  Several of the virgin-martyrs did not receive any formal consecration.  They lived and died with private or no vows, often to defend the integrity of the faith.

So too, some women who would like to receive public consecration and live their vocation and service in the name of the Church, would do better by making private vows instead.

6. The USCCB is an episcopal conference of a country that is different from where I live.  The USACV as far as I know, is not a private or public association of the faithful in the Church.  It  is registered with the State. but has an Episcopal adviser.   Every diocese or Episcopal conference has its own criteria.  No particular Church body can claim a Monopoly on deciding how the vocation should be lived all over the world.

 

​In response to your points

1. I never said it wasn't
2. Exactly. It is up to the Bishop to determine what is required. If you wish to complete advanced studies, that is your personal choice. But academic study does not equate to holiness. A CV with a doctorate could theoretically be less faithful to the charism or less holy than one without any higher education.  
3. If you research what is meant by 'service to the church' by those who were actually involved in the revision of the Rite, you would see that *working* for the church is actually not required, nor was it envisaged as a necessary central aspect of the vocation. As such, advanced vocational or theological degrees are not necessary to be of service to the church.

4. It is up to the Bishop to consecrate. His precise reasons for choosing to do so, be it 'cheap labour' or otherwise, do not invalidate the consecration.

5. If a person feels called to a charism, and that call is mutually discerned and confirmed by the Church, then really, who are you to judge that the woman 'would do better making private vows instead'? My point above, is that very many virgins and virgin martyrs did not have advanced theological education. Do you think you are a better CV than one without a higher education?

6.  There are objective answers to most questions about the vocation, which were already considered in great detail at the time the rite was revised. The problem is, people are relying on their own personal attempts at interpreting the Rite, their feelings about the vocation, and 'borrowing' from religious life to answer the questions. Instead of actually learning the necessary languages, and making it their business to obtain the relevant documents and read them. I am not saying ALL CV need to do this, but ones who want to, can, and ones involved in formation of CV would do well to do so also.

[Gabriela]

Pardon the interruption, but this thread is starting to go the way of most CV threads in the VS, so I just want to point out what I think has happened. It seems to me that oremus1 has perceived Sponsa's posts as "intellectualist", i.e., as suggesting that only educated/intellectual women would make good CVs. That set off a knee-jerk reaction of disagreement on pretty much every other point.

Now everybody is defensive and getting a little aggressive.

Might I suggest that we all calm down and remember that internet forums all too commonly lead us to misinterpret one another's meanings, leading us to believe that we disagree when in fact we agree...?

[marigold]

Yes, right behind you Gabriela.

[Sponsa-Christi]

Also, another reason to try to keep the tone friendly and civil is that we don't want all the CV threads to be moved to Debate Table! That would make it harder for women who need information on consecrated virginity to find some of the helpful conversations that have occurred in these threads. 

 

[God's Beloved]

There seems to be misunderstanding and seeing disagreement where there is none, or merely a personal opinion which any individual can and should have ( in matters that the Church has left open for discussion).

However like Oremus1 i too often reflect on the question of holiness of a candidate vs skills and talents.  It is true that most of the Founders who are declared Saints would be rejected by their own Institutes if they tried to join them today!  Think of St. Francis of Assisi.  If a candidate behaves as scandalously as he did when he quit his home, a Vocation Director today would classify him as 'mad'!

I do understand this tension between the Ideal and the Real.  Ideally we should have candidates who are holy like the Virgin Mary and the Virgin-martyrs, without much formal training.  But practically speaking, I have known CVs who have suffered immensely due to lack of formation.  e.g.  I know a CV who received consecration in her fifties without formation.  Nice, simple woman of faith although she was a bit selfish too.  She used to teach Catechism and  within two months of her consecration  the Parish priest just told her " Your services are not required".  She broke down so completely with Depression that since more than ten years she is sick and confined to her home.  Would her life have been different if she had taken private vows instead?

I try to caution candidates because I know what CVs are going through.

[Sponsa-Christi]

Another thought---it might also be helpful to start a new thread when someone wants to discuss a new topic on consecrated virginity, instead of just taking on different conversations to a thread on a different issue. (For example, I think we could have an interesting and useful conversation on "should CVs study for theology degrees?" that might provide some helpful opinions and perspectives to a CV candidate or discerner.) 

[BarbTherese]

Initiated a thread into the Debate Forum http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/137191-the-sacred-secular/?do=findComment&comment=2722401