Consecrated virgins/hermits and the selfish single life

[oremus1]

I am helping advise some people on vocations and was wondering if some of you experts can help me.

In today’s society marriage is put off, often until ones later years. Many youths often focus on travelling, studying, irregular relationships of cohabiting and fornication, parties, hobbies, cinema, nice meals, money, then later, nice houses and cars. Often, by the time they start getting serious about vocations, they are above the age limit for many convents, monasteries and seminaries, and for women, close to the difficult time for childbearing age.

We also live in a very individualistic culture which makes it very easy to develop a comfortable single life, where one is easily set in their ways by age 30 – 35 or so. One works hard for a decade, and develops a nice career, spends a lot of money buying their own flat or house and spends money furnishing it ‘just so’ exactly as they want. They like dating, and relationships, but not the burden of children who are smelly, noisy, use up time and money and effort. Kids use up their freedom. They like being able to travel, socialise, pursue personal interests, go out for nice dinners and theatres as they wish. Kids cause a womans body to stretch out and get fat. They do not want to live with anyone or change their ways to adapt to accommodate someone else. For older women, they often cannot be bothered with marriage and see no reason as they are self sufficient in the single life, and can no longer have kids.

For younger women, they say they do not want kids, but also, they do not want to join convents "I can’t deal with obedience" "I don’t want to live with other people, I like my peace and quiet". They really want some sort of affirmation of the comfortable single life.

Some older women have been in very painful relationships that have not worked out.

The only stigma is, the weirdness of being a middle aged single person never married. Additionally, in the church there is a culture of ‘vocations’ developing, and a pressure on uncommitted persons.

As a result, I am having people with the above reasons enquiring about vocations of consecrated virgins and consecrated hermits (particularly the consecration of virgins).

Now personally I believe that one does not realise themselves until they make a gift of themselves to another. Whether that is through marriage, ordination, consecrated life or private vows. But with private vows or the consecrated virgins and hermits, there is nothing objective to prevent them from using it as an affirmation of the single comfortable middle aged life that simply doesn’t want to live with anyone else, and in many cases theose vocations are not well understood even by senior prelates.

I am also seeing women with the above reasons think they are called to it despite unchaste pasts because ‘no one is going to check’ and they cannot see the importance of physical virginity, and no one wants to ask them about it, and their view is, due to forgiveness, and the often stated "everyone has a vocation", they assume this must be it

Can you offer some advice as to how a person advising such people on vocations can distinguish between ‘true’ vocations and the persons in the above category? Is there any real need? Because even the people who are like the above, are seeking the consecrated life so probably there will be some grace in that.

Disclaimer: I am not saying all singles are like this, I am just wondering how one deals with these particular ones. I am also not saying that all CV or CH are selfish. Many live their calling very nobly. But there is nothing to stop one simply praying 20 minutes a day and then living the same life of comfort and autonomy.

 

[AccountDeleted]

I notice you have a phishy tag and wonder what it is that makes you that way? Do you hold some views that are not particularly in line with the Catholic Church? If so, I also wonder who you offer vocation advice to? I mean, do you work for a diocese or a secular organisation or ??? These factors might influence how you see things, especially since you state: "that one does not realise themselves until they make a gift of themselves to another"   which is a vague statement that might mean different things to different people. What does it mean to realize oneself? (and since you use the British spelling, are you from the UK or Australia? which might make a difference in some ways) and apart from marriage, what other vocation do you see as a person making 'a gift of themselves to another'? Or are you speaking of a gift to God as well? Because that is how many people see consecration, a gift of themselves to God.

I ask all these questions because a person who has a calling (vocation) to religious life or Holy Orders usually has an understanding of what a vocation is or means and they try to respond to this call in a way that they feel would best serve God.

Since you add a disclaimer that not all singles are 'like this' (meaning not really having a vocation but pursuing it anyway?) and then ask for how to deal with those who are, I suggest that perhaps you don't quite understand what a vocation is. Have you had training in this area? If so, this should have covered some of these things. Yes, there are people who are not sure of their vocation and want to try it, but what's wrong with that? People also go on dates before they get married, to discern if marriage is for them, or if marriage with a particular person is for them. People who are discerning a vocation to religious life or CV or CH might have to try a few things as well before they know for sure whether or not God wants them to express their love for Him in this particular way.

I am concerned about your attitude to vocations in general and to CVs, CHs or those in private vows in particular. You seem to be implying that they are simply:  'using it as an affirmation of the single comfortable middle aged life'.  What a strange view. It reminds me of people who think that older religious vocations simply want a nice retirement community (religious life is not a comfortable retirement community!). When a person makes a vow of any kind to God, hopefully they are doing this as an act of love and a calling for a deeper commitment to Him. If they are doing it because they feel a stigma attached to 'just being single' then yes, there is a problem, but since it takes time and the approval of a Bishop to become a CV or CH, this most likely will be discovered along the way.

If you are a trained spiritual director for the Catholic Church then hopefully you have the training to help a person discern this for themselves before they approach their Bishop. If not, I do recommend that you advise them to seek out a spiritual director or have a conversation with their pastor. If any person wants to make private vows, then once again, this should take some time to discern, and then perhaps the pastor might be consulted as well, although private vows mean that, private. They are between the person and God and they don't really need to involve anyone else if they don't want to. It doesn't hurt to get direction about it, but I don't see any real danger in them wanting to do this.

Your post seems to have an underlying question in it but I am not quite sure yet what that is. Are you mainly concerned with women who do not have physical virginity and want to become CVs? Do you actually ask those you advise to have a medical exam or what? If you state what the requirements are and explain why they are what they are, then it isn't up to you to go further than that. If they have actually told you that they are not a virgin and still want to be a CV, then suggest that they discuss this with the Bishop because you can only tell them the canon law, you are not the one who has to approve of them or accept their vows. So what's the real problem here?

[oremus1]

I don't see why you are so angry about this issue. 

I will nevertheless explain further:

 "Man cannot fully find himself except by making a sincere gift of himself" Gaudium et Spes, 24. We make a total and complete gift of ourselves through 1) marriage or 2) dedicated or consecrated chastity.

You do not seem to be able to distinguish between the celibate single state, and dedicating that celibacy to God. The first is not of itself a virtue (cf Summa Theologica Q88) the latter is a virtue.

You then say "When a person makes a vow of any kind to God, hopefully they are doing this as an act of love and a calling for a deeper commitment to Him. If they are doing it because they feel a stigma attached to 'just being single' then yes, there is a problem, but since it takes time and the approval of a Bishop to become a CV or CH, this most likely will be discovered along the way."

This is the essence of my question.

In a great many dioceses, there is no proper formation for CVs or CHs. In some cases, one writes to a bishop, particularly if they are of advanced age, and is consecrated just weeks later with no understanding of what it is or means, and having never read the Rite. In other diocese, formerly married women are consecrated as virgins.

Often in such areas, persons helping them discern will be familiar with the issue I have raised. 

Imagine having the following conversations.

Candidate: "I am thinking of becoming a consecrated virgin"
You: Why do you feel called that way?
C: Well, I am definitely not called to marriage
You: Why?
C: I don't feel called to have kids. They are noisy, smelly, you get fat, they use up your time. I just am not called to have kids for sure. And I definitely am not called to be a nun either.
You: Why not?
C: I cannot deal with obedience. I don't want someone telling me what to do all the time. And I don't want to live with other people. I am pretty happy with my life as it is. I have a nice flat, a big car, I like going out to cinema with my friends, and going on holiday s  when I like. I like my peace and quiet. Everyone has a vocation though. So as I don't feel called to be a nun or a wife and mother, I must be called to be a consecrated virgin. I mean, I have lived with a guy for a couple of years at uni, but we weren't married. I am just pretty happy with my life as it is. So I muct be called to become a consecrated virgin.
You: You do realise that consecrated virginity is more than the single life, and physical virginity is a requirement
C: Yes sure. So how can I get consecrated as fast as possible?

Or imagine:

Candidate: I am 60 years old, I have never been married, and I heard of the consecration. I feel called to it because, I have had some bad relationships in the past, and after that, I realised I wasn't called to marriage. Obviously at my age I will not get married. I am pretty happy living alone. How do I get consecrated?

Contrast this with

Candidate: I wanted to give my whole self to the Lord in a nuptial way as I feel called to be a spouse of Christ, I understand this is a gift of my whole life affecting every dimension of my person. I am prepared to move house so I can get to daily mass more easily. I am dedicated to the service of the Church in my everyday life, and am renouncing marriage to love Jesus more ardently

 

[AccountDeleted]

You didn't answer any of my questions about just who it is that you advise on this subject. I am worried about what you are conveying to those who think they have a vocation. It is very important not to be judgmental while you are advising others about this sensitive issure.

I am certainly not mad about any of this but I do wonder what your hidden agenda might be. Every individual has the right to check out a vocation within the Church if they feel that this is what God is calling them to. Whether or not they actually pursue a vocation to consecration and beyond is what the whole process of discernment is all about. 

You make the statement  'You do not seem to be able to distinguish between the celibate single state, and dedicating that celibacy to God.'

Of course I understand this. I have had intensive education about this from priests, nuns, SDs and VDs. I have also discerned religious life, hermit life and private vows. I have also studied the Summa and other theologians quite extensively, although my major is education, not theology. I have had many discussions with priests and theologians around the world about different issues, especially this one. So while I am no 'expert' (meaning I have never been employed in the field), I am also no novice to discernment of consecrated life in different forms

Now if you are living in a diocese where the Bishop will consecrate a CV after only a few weeks then all I can say is 'poor you' there isn't much you can do if your Bishop is allowing this, is there? Personally, I have investigated several different vocations - and yes, as a mature woman, not a spring chicken. But I have researched each vocation thoroughly and discussed them with appropriate SDs, pastors, Bishops etc. The Bishop I spoke with about the CH life told me that I would have to live it for a year before he would even consider discussing it further with me, and suggested I stay in contact with my parish priest for SD to see how it was working out for me. After 8 months I discerned that it was not for me so did not have to take it further with the Bishop. His advice was wise. I also lived with a laura of hermits in the US for two months and with the help of an SD there, discerned that it was not for me either. I am personally of the opinion that discernment means living the life to see if one is a fit for it. And most people I know who have entered into religious communities and then left have been glad that they did have the experience because they learned so much from it. For a CV, I certainly think they should live the life for at least a year, and perhaps even take private vows, depending on the advice of their own SD. They should also undergo some study about just what the vocation entails.

You are making a big mistake though in thinking that a 60 year old woman who has never been married can't say the same things as a young woman about wanting to give her life to God in celibate chastity. There are women who have given up their lives to help with elderly parents or as aunts or simply as 'parish ladies'. Age is not a barrier to vocation except in so far as a community sets its own limits. Since older women are not usually accepted into communities, if they have a desire to give themselves to God as a CV or CH when they are older, there is nothing to stop them from doing this, if, after discernment and spiritual direction, it is God's will as indicated by obtaining  their Bishop's permission. Canon law states the requirements and anyone choosing such a consecration should abide by these, but it is the bishop's responsibility to see that it is followed, not yours. You can only advise and offer facts.

The pictures you paint are of extremes. I doubt that most women fall into either of those categories. And even if someone did ask me about their vocation and said those things to me, I would simply suggest to them that perhaps they are not so much feeling called by God as looking for a place to belong within the Church. I would then help them to find that place within their own abilities and gifts. Everyone has something to offer to God. 

And if they are feeling a stigma at being unmarried, I would help them to deal with those feelings rather than simply condemn them as being unfit. Our attitude must not be judgmental and lacking in compassion. We can try explaining to them that consecration is not something that happens overnight and if they honestly feel that this is a path they are being called to take then they need to understand all about it. We should give them things to read that will explain about physical virginity being a requirement, and also give them readings from the second Council that explain that we are all called by God to be holy and that we all have a vocation, that is true, but for each of us, it is different, some being consecrated, some married, and some living under private vows etc. 

Rather than trying to exclude those who are not qualified, if we try to include them in some way into the Church they won't end up feeling like second class citizens in the community. Each and every one of us is precious to God, no matter our state in life. But we must try for as much compassion as we can.

And since this is in VS and not the Debate Table, we must also remember that we want to keep this as positive and charitable as we can. God is love, after all.  

 

[oremus1]

 

1. Now if you are living in a diocese where the Bishop will consecrate a CV after only a few weeks then all I can say is 'poor you' there isn't much you can do if your Bishop is allowing this, is there?

2. Personally, I have investigated several different vocations - and yes, as a mature woman, not a spring chicken. But I have researched each vocation thoroughly and discussed them with appropriate SDs, pastors, Bishops etc. The Bishop I spoke with about the CH life told me that I would have to live it for a year before he would even consider discussing it further with me, and suggested I stay in contact with my parish priest for SD to see how it was working out for me. After 8 months I discerned that it was not for me so did not have to take it further with the Bishop. His advice was wise. I also lived with a laura of hermits in the US for two months and with the help of an SD there, discerned that it was not for me either. I am personally of the opinion that discernment means living the life to see if one is a fit for it. And most people I know who have entered into religious communities and then left have been glad that they did have the experience because they learned so much from it.

3. For a CV, I certainly think they should live the life for at least a year, and perhaps even take private vows, depending on the advice of their own SD. They should also undergo some study about just what the vocation entails.

4. The pictures you paint are of extremes. I doubt that most women fall into either of those categories. And even if someone did ask me about their vocation and said those things to me, I would simply suggest to them that perhaps they are not so much feeling called by God as looking for a place to belong within the Church. I would then help them to find that place within their own abilities and gifts. Everyone has something to offer to God.

5. And if they are feeling a stigma at being unmarried, I would help them to deal with those feelings rather than simply condemn them as being unfit. Our attitude must not be judgmental and lacking in compassion. We can try explaining to them that consecration is not something that happens overnight and if they honestly feel that this is a path they are being called to take then they need to understand all about it. We should give them things to read that will explain about physical virginity being a requirement, and also give them readings from the second Council that explain that we are all called by God to be holy and that we all have a vocation, that is true, but for each of us, it is different, some being consecrated, some married, and some living under private vows etc.

6. Rather than trying to exclude those who are not qualified, if we try to include them in some way into the Church they won't end up feeling like second class citizens in the community. Each and every one of us is precious to God, no matter our state in life. But we must try for as much compassion as we can.

7. And since this is in VS and not the Debate Table, we must also remember that we want to keep this as positive and charitable as we can. God is love, after all.

 

​I have numbered your relevant points to make it easier to refer to them

 

1. This is changing, with many people helping the discernment process. However it is fairly common in many dioceses, even some COUNTRIES

2. In your case, I am sorry things didn't work out for you. But you must realise, many diocese are very different to yours. In some diocese, most of the process is delegated, and the Bishop or Archbishop or Cardiinal is so busy it will not be until even the week before that a candidate can meet him, after she is approved by everyone else in the process.

3. I agree, I would extend it to at least 3 years to be honest, and have some structured study of the vocation. but in many areas the formation process is itself still developing. even in many parts of the USA

4 - 6. Actually most people who have come to me are in the two examples I gave, and it would be helpful if you could expand on these points. How does someone who is assisting others in their discernment help them distinguish between the two? Is there any need?

7. I wasn't arguing - see my OP - I was asking a question. I am sorry if it relates to a personal situation of yours or something. No need to be offended.

[AccountDeleted]

​I have numbered your relevant points to make it easier to refer to them

 

1. This is changing, with many people helping the discernment process. However it is fairly common in many dioceses, even some COUNTRIES

2. In your case, I am sorry things didn't work out for you. But you must realise, many diocese are very different to yours. In some diocese, most of the process is delegated, and the Bishop or Archbishop or Cardiinal is so busy it will not be until even the week before that a candidate can meet him, after she is approved by everyone else in the process.

3. I agree, I would extend it to at least 3 years to be honest, and have some structured study of the vocation. but in many areas the formation process is itself still developing. even in many parts of the USA

4 - 6. Actually most people who have come to me are in the two examples I gave, and it would be helpful if you could expand on these points. How does someone who is assisting others in their discernment help them distinguish between the two? Is there any need?

7. I wasn't arguing - see my OP - I was asking a question. I am sorry if it relates to a personal situation of yours or something. No need to be offended.

​

1. Well, since this is the Bishop's responsibility, there isn't much you can do about this then.

2. I'm not sorry at all. You do know what discernment is, don't you?

Part 2 of 2: Well, since this is the Bishop's responsibility, there isn't much you can do about it.

3. Well, since this is the Bishop's responsibility, there isn't much you can do about it.

4-6. To be continued in another post...

7. I didn't say you were arguing but caution is good.

Part 2 of 7: It doesn't. Part 3 of 7: I wasn't.

 

[AccountDeleted]

Nunsense:

4. The pictures you paint are of extremes. I doubt that most women fall into either of those categories. And even if someone did ask me about their vocation and said those things to me, I would simply suggest to them that perhaps they are not so much feeling called by God as looking for a place to belong within the Church. I would then help them to find that place within their own abilities and gifts. Everyone has something to offer to God.

5. And if they are feeling a stigma at being unmarried, I would help them to deal with those feelings rather than simply condemn them as being unfit. Our attitude must not be judgmental and lacking in compassion. We can try explaining to them that consecration is not something that happens overnight and if they honestly feel that this is a path they are being called to take then they need to understand all about it. We should give them things to read that will explain about physical virginity being a requirement, and also give them readings from the second Council that explain that we are all called by God to be holy and that we all have a vocation, that is true, but for each of us, it is different, some being consecrated, some married, and some living under private vows etc.

6. Rather than trying to exclude those who are not qualified, if we try to include them in some way into the Church they won't end up feeling like second class citizens in the community. Each and every one of us is precious to God, no matter our state in life. But we must try for as much compassion as we can

 

Oremus1

4 - 6. Actually most people who have come to me are in the two examples I gave, and it would be helpful if you could expand on these points. How does someone who is assisting others in their discernment help them distinguish between the two? Is there any need?.

-------------------------------------

 

 

If most of the people who come to you are in either of the extreme groups you described then you help those in the first group to understand the requirements per canon laws as they relate to the vocation that interests them and if they still wish to pursue things, then advise them to speak with a SD, VD, pastor or someone in the diocesan office for further advice. The first group needs compassion and understanding to help them understand why they might not meet the requirements for their desired vocation, and also encouraged to find another place in the Church where they can still feel valued - so whatever you do or say, keep this in mind.

As for the second group, they don't seem to be a problem for you since they are obviously the ideal (according to you) for this vocation. So do whatever it is that you normally do for those with a vocation and advise them to contact those in authority who might be able to help them follow up with their discernment.

If you do happen to come across anyone who is somewhere between these extremes, then help them to understand (if you do) that discernment is a process and takes time. And that sometimes one decides not to pursue a particular path after a period of discernment - and this is perfectly normal and even a good thing because everything along the path can help one to come closer to God.

Common sense works wonders.

[oremus1]

Nunsense:

4. The pictures you paint are of extremes. I doubt that most women fall into either of those categories. And even if someone did ask me about their vocation and said those things to me, I would simply suggest to them that perhaps they are not so much feeling called by God as looking for a place to belong within the Church. I would then help them to find that place within their own abilities and gifts. Everyone has something to offer to God.

5. And if they are feeling a stigma at being unmarried, I would help them to deal with those feelings rather than simply condemn them as being unfit. Our attitude must not be judgmental and lacking in compassion. We can try explaining to them that consecration is not something that happens overnight and if they honestly feel that this is a path they are being called to take then they need to understand all about it. We should give them things to read that will explain about physical virginity being a requirement, and also give them readings from the second Council that explain that we are all called by God to be holy and that we all have a vocation, that is true, but for each of us, it is different, some being consecrated, some married, and some living under private vows etc.

6. Rather than trying to exclude those who are not qualified, if we try to include them in some way into the Church they won't end up feeling like second class citizens in the community. Each and every one of us is precious to God, no matter our state in life. But we must try for as much compassion as we can

 

Oremus1

4 - 6. Actually most people who have come to me are in the two examples I gave, and it would be helpful if you could expand on these points. How does someone who is assisting others in their discernment help them distinguish between the two? Is there any need?.

-------------------------------------

 

 

If most of the people who come to you are in either of the extreme groups you described then you help those in the first group to understand the requirements per canon laws as they relate to the vocation that interests them and if they still wish to pursue things, then advise them to speak with a SD, VD, pastor or someone in the diocesan office for further advice. The first group needs compassion and understanding to help them understand why they might not meet the requirements for their desired vocation, and also encouraged to find another place in the Church where they can still feel valued - so whatever you do or say, keep this in mind.

As for the second group, they don't seem to be a problem for you since they are obviously the ideal (according to you) for this vocation. So do whatever it is that you normally do for those with a vocation and advise them to contact those in authority who might be able to help them follow up with their discernment.

If you do happen to come across anyone who is somewhere between these extremes, then help them to understand (if you do) that discernment is a process and takes time. And that sometimes one decides not to pursue a particular path after a period of discernment - and this is perfectly normal and even a good thing because everything along the path can help one to come closer to God.

Common sense works wonders.

​Not sure the last sentence was necessary - what is your issue?

Are you (or anyone) able to elaborate on the difference between 'fallback' vocations, and actual vocations? How does one distinguish? can one turn into the other, in which case there are no fallback vocations?

[AccountDeleted]

​Not sure the last sentence was necessary - what is your issue?

Are you (or anyone) able to elaborate on the difference between 'fallback' vocations, and actual vocations? How does one distinguish? can one turn into the other, in which case there are no fallback vocations?

​Well since common sense is known to be incredibly uncommon, I think the last sentence is very relevant when giving advice to other people. A lot of questions can be answered simply by applying common sense to them.

As for the other questions, I will leave these for someone else to answer because I don't believe that you are finding my responses very helpful to you. Perhaps Marigold, who propped your OP might want to weigh in here? Perhaps she understands your actual questions better than I do.

Good luck.

[orapronobis]

 

​Well since common sense is known to be incredibly uncommon, I think the last sentence is very relevant when giving advice to other people. A lot of questions can be answered simply by applying common sense to them.

As for the other questions, I will leave these for someone else to answer because I don't believe that you are finding my responses very helpful to you. Perhaps Marigold, who propped your OP might want to weigh in here? Perhaps she understands your actual questions better than I do.

Good luck.

 However,  I found your posts on this topic to be very informative and easy to follow.  So thank you nunsense  

[AccountDeleted]

 However,  I found your posts on this topic to be very informative and easy to follow.  So thank you nunsense  

​Why thank you orapronobis, that's sweet. 

We all take in information differently though so perhaps someone else might help the OP better than I can.  

[BarbTherese]

Mmmm............. (after reading the OP)

[Gabriela]

I am helping advise some people on vocations and was wondering if some of you experts can help me.

In today’s society marriage is put off, often until ones later years. Many youths often focus on travelling, studying, irregular relationships of cohabiting and fornication, parties, hobbies, cinema, nice meals, money, then later, nice houses and cars. Often, by the time they start getting serious about vocations, they are above the age limit for many convents, monasteries and seminaries, and for women, close to the difficult time for childbearing age.

We also live in a very individualistic culture which makes it very easy to develop a comfortable single life, where one is easily set in their ways by age 30 – 35 or so. One works hard for a decade, and develops a nice career, spends a lot of money buying their own flat or house and spends money furnishing it ‘just so’ exactly as they want. They like dating, and relationships, but not the burden of children who are smelly, noisy, use up time and money and effort. Kids use up their freedom. They like being able to travel, socialise, pursue personal interests, go out for nice dinners and theatres as they wish. Kids cause a womans body to stretch out and get fat. They do not want to live with anyone or change their ways to adapt to accommodate someone else. For older women, they often cannot be bothered with marriage and see no reason as they are self sufficient in the single life, and can no longer have kids.

For younger women, they say they do not want kids, but also, they do not want to join convents "I can’t deal with obedience" "I don’t want to live with other people, I like my peace and quiet". They really want some sort of affirmation of the comfortable single life.

Some older women have been in very painful relationships that have not worked out.

The only stigma is, the weirdness of being a middle aged single person never married. Additionally, in the church there is a culture of ‘vocations’ developing, and a pressure on uncommitted persons.

As a result, I am having people with the above reasons enquiring about vocations of consecrated virgins and consecrated hermits (particularly the consecration of virgins).

Now personally I believe that one does not realise themselves until they make a gift of themselves to another. Whether that is through marriage, ordination, consecrated life or private vows. But with private vows or the consecrated virgins and hermits, there is nothing objective to prevent them from using it as an affirmation of the single comfortable middle aged life that simply doesn’t want to live with anyone else, and in many cases theose vocations are not well understood even by senior prelates.

I am also seeing women with the above reasons think they are called to it despite unchaste pasts because ‘no one is going to check’ and they cannot see the importance of physical virginity, and no one wants to ask them about it, and their view is, due to forgiveness, and the often stated "everyone has a vocation", they assume this must be it

Can you offer some advice as to how a person advising such people on vocations can distinguish between ‘true’ vocations and the persons in the above category? Is there any real need? Because even the people who are like the above, are seeking the consecrated life so probably there will be some grace in that.

Disclaimer: I am not saying all singles are like this, I am just wondering how one deals with these particular ones. I am also not saying that all CV or CH are selfish. Many live their calling very nobly. But there is nothing to stop one simply praying 20 minutes a day and then living the same life of comfort and autonomy.

 

​Hi oremus1,

I'm sorry I didn't see this thread until now. Let me explain what I think is going on, since it seems you're fairly new 'round these parts.

First, up until your disclaimer, I was terrified you'd just started a flame war. The VS has a long history of really nasty threads surrounding "the single vocations", and consecrated virginity in particular. So yeah, given our history, people are justifiably touchy about these things.

Second, the way you phrased some things up until the disclaimer were sure to offend quite a few people who remember those nasty threads. They made it sound like all people who are unmarried or not called to religious life are just selfish. (In fact, the whole reason I clicked into this thread is because the topic title made me go, "Omigosh, WUT?!".) I know: Your disclaimer made abundantly clear that that wasn't your intent. But by that point, some people were probably already majorly freaked out.

Third, I don't know how you got the "phishy" tag, but it does make people question your posts even more. I don't necessarily think that's fair, since I've heard people can get the phishy tag for all sorts of reasons, and considering your disclaimer together with the rest of your post, I don't think there's anything wrong with your post overall. So I'm going to consider it on its own merits and not on the basis of your "phishy" tag.

Here I go:

First, I am not a spiritual director nor do I have qualifications to be. But it sounds to me like you're in some pretty tricky relationships, and I do think that, if you plan to give spiritual guidance in them, you should be a qualified SD. I don't know if you are (I skipped all the ugliness in the middle of this thread), but if you're not, you might consider getting certified. Or consider sending these people to certified SDs/priests/religious. Cuz they're hard cases.

Second, if that is not an option, or at least in the meantime, I would suggest simply making clear to these people what the CV/CH vocations are. Give them lots of reading. Through that reading, they will hopefully come to see their own spiritual challenges (like selfishness or fear or whatever), which can only help them open up more to God and so to find their true vocations, be that CV/CH or not. If you give someone a bunch of reading about CV/CH, and they don't care to read it, well that's a clear sign they're not called to that. And you can tell them that. No Bishop is going to consecrate them (hopefully!) without first testing that they truly understand the vocation. If the people are in as bad a spiritual state as your OP suggests, give them more basic literature about vocations in general to begin with. That way they can first learn that vocations are not about ourselves, but about what we have to give to God. It can only help them grow, regardless of where they end up!

Third, I agree with you that the formation of CVs and CHs can be problematic, if it happens in total isolation (or not at all). That is a serious concern. The "constraints" and supports of a community and a structured life are very important to the formation of consecrated people. So if that's absent, I think the best thing you can do is #4...

Fourth, I would strongly encourage these people to get to guided retreats that have SDs available. You could do the legwork yourself to find places they could go for affordable rates. I think that would be very helpful to them!

I hope that helps. Please let me know if you have other questions, though again, I'm just casting off ideas here, not providing any kind of "official recommendation"!

[marigold]

I think I agree with Gabriela. The reason I propped the OP was because, as I understood it, oremus was asking what to do in such cases, and not making blanket statements about people who might be or want to be CVs/hermits/singles etc. I think some of the cultural norms oremus brings up are interesting because I've thought about how things like that affect vocations too.

[Feankie]

As a trained, certified, credentialed, bona fide spiritual director, I would caution youi if you are not.  I've had directees in the same situation and things can disintegrate into the deep weeds if one is not careful and knows what one is doing,  Not to say you are doing/suggesting anything "iffy", but many individuals are extremely fragile/vulnerable and are grasping at straws a bit to "fit in." So, that being said, please tread carefully and gently, and don't be afraid to say "Uncle" if things get too strained/stressed.  Better to have stepped away than to have guided one on the wrong path.