Credo in Deum Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragon Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Yes, I do. In fact given how clear the Church has been since the Council that all people have a right to religious freedom I don't see how any Catholic could honestly say they are against it. I understand people talk about reconciling traditional and Concilliar teaching on this however, overall, I find discussions about esoteric points of theology like that a little pointless.The Church isn't going to be revoking Dignitatis Humanae, and even if She did it would be utterly pointless. We no longer live in a time of homogeneously Catholic societies. I think the Church has far more important things to focus on such as ending poverty and the New Evangelization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Welcome, sure. Am I interested? Occasionally. Your opinions yes. Crosscut's, today, not really. Anyway, I do not think I said the laypeople at large are to blame. I some sense certainly we are, but exclusively, I do not think so. Prickly!!! Its too bad youre not very interested in thoughts that differ from your own. Diversity is the spice of life! Learn everything you can about every walk of life my friend! It will make you a rich individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Christianity built on the world it inherited (the Roman Empire, pagan philosophy, etc.). I doubt any kind of society or civilization can be built as a competitor of the world that actually exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I doubt any kind of society or civilization can be built as a competitor of the world that actually exists. Not with that attitude!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Not with that attitude!! You can build on the world that actually exists, but to create a society apart from it based on entirely other realities and principles would be like trying to become the man you were at 20 when you're 50. Even if you were to live by the exact same principles and assumptions you had at 20, you can never go back to it, you have changed, you are not the person you were and never can be again, and the world around you has changed, the context in which you take form in the world. There is only the present, unless you're on a quest with Don Quixote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 Yes, I do. In fact given how clear the Church has been since the Council that all people have a right to religious freedom I don't see how any Catholic could honestly say they are against it. I understand people talk about reconciling traditional and Concilliar teaching on this however, overall, I find discussions about esoteric points of theology like that a little pointless.The Church isn't going to be revoking Dignitatis Humanae, and even if She did it would be utterly pointless. We no longer live in a time of homogeneously Catholic societies. I think the Church has far more important things to focus on such as ending poverty and the New Evangelization. I hardly think it is an esoteric point. It is fairly simple and thoroughly relevant to modern times. It is not a trendy topic to be on the wrong side of, but the fact is that Leo rejected it outright. So I ask again, what are your thoughts on that? Does it bother you to disagree outright with such an influential pope? In many ways the pope who was the father of modern Catholic social teaching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragon Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I hardly think it is an esoteric point. It is fairly simple and thoroughly relevant to modern times. It is not a trendy topic to be on the wrong side of, but the fact is that Leo rejected it outright. It is an esoteric point because it's something that very few Catholics care or think about.Can you maybe explain to me how it's relevant to modern times? I really don't see how it is. If the Vatican were to re-issue its condemnation of religious liberty I can't think of one state that would even consider curtailing the rights to religious freedom of non-Catholic religions. Can you? We simply don't live in that kind of world any more. Thank God for that too, because given Islamic and Communist oppression the Church's championing of religious liberty is a great aid in the fight for freedom of worship for Catholics. The Church hardly condemn countries like China for not respecting the religious freedom of Christians in one breath and then encourage Catholic nations to restrict the practice of false religions in another breath. So I ask again, what are your thoughts on that? Does it bother you to disagree outright with such an influential pope? In many ways the pope who was the father of modern Catholic social teaching? No it doesn't bother me because I don't think a question about whether and how a State should regulate worship falls under faith or morals. Does it bother you that you disagree outright with the Second Vatican Council which declares that all men have a right to worship in accordance with their conscience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragon Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 PS. I hope that didn't sound confrontational, my friend. I'm honestly interested. I just can't see how given the current political situation since the Enlightenment anyone could even realistically imagine a return to the days of Catholic states, ergo I can't see how it's worth thinking about. Surely things like the New Evangelization and our work to relieve poverty is more pressing (and realistic)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 Can you maybe explain to me how it's relevant to modern times? I really don't see how it is. If the Vatican were to re-issue its condemnation of religious liberty I can't think of one state that would even consider curtailing the rights to religious freedom of non-Catholic religions. Can you? We simply don't live in that kind of world any more. Thank God for that too, because given Islamic and Communist oppression the Church's championing of religious liberty is a great aid in the fight for freedom of worship for Catholics. The Church hardly condemn countries like China for not respecting the religious freedom of Christians in one breath and then encourage Catholic nations to restrict the practice of false religions in another breath. We also no longer live in a world where the Church's condemnations of abortion, contraceptives, sodomy, and fornication are allowed any influence. So that, in itself, means nothing. It especially does not mean that such condemnations no longer have moral weight. It simply means our approach changes in how we apply those teachings in our current climate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 No it doesn't bother me because I don't think a question about whether and how a State should regulate worship falls under faith or morals. Does it bother you that you disagree outright with the Second Vatican Council which declares that all men have a right to worship in accordance with their conscience? I could only possibly disagree with the Second Vatican Council if the Council itself was in reality a contradiction of previous Catholic teachings. Certainly the Council itself asserted otherwise, as did Pope Benedict. And I do not think most Phatmassers are ok with that conclusion either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 To be honest, with the political landscape of essentially every country in the world representing vice, licence, and blasphemy, I think it is all we can do to turn back to the Church's guidance and embrace Her social teachings. Edit:Aragorn, you seem not to have read Libertas. I highly recommend it, as well as Immortale Dei and Diuternum. I would probably read Immortale first, Diuternum second, and Libertas third. That is what I did, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 It's not surprising to me to see that most Catholics here (assuming American) believe the Church defends the concept of freedom of religion, but apparently miss that the Church only supports the freedom to be Catholic in non-Catholic States, but obligatory Catholicism and restrictions on freedom to profess other or none is really the goal and ideal for eventual Catholic States. The things you should know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) It's not surprising to me to see that most Catholics here (assuming American) believe the Church defends the concept of freedom of religion, but apparently miss that the Church only supports the freedom to be Catholic in non-Catholic States, but obligatory Catholicism and restrictions on freedom to profess other or none is really the goal and ideal for eventual Catholic States. The things you should know. No Catholic should be surprised though to find this out since this method is not contrary to the nature of truth. We know this if we've ever taken a test in school. There are right answers and there are wrong answers, true and false. Do we point at our science teachers and math teachers as being intolerant because they give us an F when we get the answer wrong? Do we call them bigots for not allowing us "freedom of thought" becuse they do not hold true and false as being equal to each other? No, we do not. We thank them for their correction. We submit our understanding to theirs because we acknowledge them as teachers of truth. Any Catholic that believes their religion to be the truth but denies it the authority to enforce the truth is being just as unreasonble as a student who denies their teacher the authority to grade their test. Any Catholic that believes their religion to be the truth but wants it to be held on equal footing with other religions is indifferent to truth. Edited March 26, 2015 by Credo in Deum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 No Catholic should be surprised though to find this out since this method is not contrary to the nature of truth. We know this if we've ever taken a test in school. There are right answers and there are wrong answers, true and false. Do we point at our science teachers and math teachers as being intolerant because they give us an F when we get the answer wrong? Do we call them bigots for not allowing us "freedom of thought" becuse they do not hold true and false as being equal to each other? No, we do not. We thank them for their correction. We submit our understanding to theirs because we acknowledge them as teachers of truth. Any Catholic that believes their religion to be the truth but denies it the authority to enforce the truth is being just as unreasonble as a student who denies their teacher the authority to grade their test. Any Catholic that believes their religion to be the truth but wants it to be held on equal footing with other religions is indifferent to truth. In math there is always more than 1 way to answer a question. And then as far as history class goes good luck! The truth there only depends on who wrote the book youre getting tested on or even the teacher themself so the answers are arbitrary and rather meaningless. Its interesting how much you learn the more sources you get. If you rely on 1 source for all your information, youll be pigeon holed into a very narrow neck of whatever particular bias that person has. The best way to discover truth is to sample as much as possible...see where the consensus agrees and disagrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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