Apologetics Class?

[PhuturePriest]

That's an ad hominem my brother, judge the man's words and not his person.

 

Okay, I will. I particularly judge when Father Hesse said any Catholic who attends or celebrates an OF Mass is a formal heretic, and that every encyclical written since Vatican II is heretical. I judge when he went on to say that, even if you don't attend or celebrate the Novus Ordo, if you are a traditionalist Priest but still accept Vatican II, you are a formal heretic (And he then made it clear that they were formal, not just material, heretics), citing the FSSP and ICKSP specifically. He was an informal schismatic, and it bothers me when non-SSPX traditionalists view him as some hero of the traditionalist cause. He was a perfect example of what the traditionalist movement should be striving to avoid and curb out of our ranks.

[Nihil Obstat]

Okay, I will. I particularly judge when Father Hesse said any Catholic who attends or celebrates an OF Mass is a formal heretic, and that every encyclical written since Vatican II is heretical. I judge when he went on to say that, even if you don't attend or celebrate the Novus Ordo, if you are a traditionalist Priest but still accept Vatican II, you are a formal heretic (And he then made it clear that they were formal, not just material, heretics), citing the FSSP and ICKSP specifically. He was an informal schismatic, and it bothers me when non-SSPX traditionalists view him as some hero of the traditionalist cause. He was a perfect example of what the traditionalist movement should be striving to avoid and curb out of our ranks.

Certainly he did not say that. He knows canon law too well to make that mistake. I will have to see references. Not posted here though; send it on FB.

[Basilisa Marie]

What does your priest mean when he says that he doesn't want any "conservative" resources?

 

What he says is that he wants things that are centrist, but I'm still figuring out what that means.  What I've observed is that he seems ideological left of center, really into historical-critical stuff, and seems to be suspicious of anything that he could interpret as overly-pious, blind love of Church authority. He doesn't personally care for any of the "extra" devotions in the faith, like Marian Apparitions, St. Faustina, or even Adoration and the Rosary. Now, I don't believe any of what I said constitutes sinful behavior, and we're all free to have the kind of preferences he seems to have. It's just that he doesn't seem to want to promote that kind of conservative Catholicism. I heard that a few years ago, they used Fr. Barron's Catholicism series, but he doesn't like it, doesn't think it has enough meat, and would only want to use it if we had no other choice. I'm not the biggest fan of Fr. Barron, but I wouldn't describe that series like that. 

I think what he wants is to develop people into Catholics who are critical thinkers, who test what the Church says against their own reason, and aren't afraid to say something if they disagree. I think he wants people to know about Church history, both the dirty laundry and the clean, and to understand that a lot of things have changed in the Church over the centuries. I can appreciate a lot of that, but my problem with it is that you really need to make sure that someone is well formed and spiritually mature before you can start throwing a lot of that at them. And what I see is a lot of people missing just basic catechesis. Just because someone is an adult, doesn't mean you should start throwing a bunch of hardballs at them. I hope I don't sound condescending to them, because that's not my intention. So I'm trying to figure out how to address the need for solid catechesis in a way that neither lacks critical thinking nor poo-poos strong spirituality. Rock, meet hard place. 

 

In the mean time, I figure people on the internet are usually pretty familiar with apologetics, so what better ways to crowdsource than to ask y'all? :) 

 

[Ark]

Okay, I will. I particularly judge when Father Hesse said any Catholic who attends or celebrates an OF Mass is a formal heretic, and that every encyclical written since Vatican II is heretical. I judge when he went on to say that, even if you don't attend or celebrate the Novus Ordo, if you are a traditionalist Priest but still accept Vatican II, you are a formal heretic (And he then made it clear that they were formal, not just material, heretics), citing the FSSP and ICKSP specifically. He was an informal schismatic, and it bothers me when non-SSPX traditionalists view him as some hero of the traditionalist cause. He was a perfect example of what the traditionalist movement should be striving to avoid and curb out of our ranks.

 

I share Nihil Obstat's skepticism as I'm not aware of Fr. Hesse ever making such claims. 

[truthfinder]

 He doesn't personally care for any of the "extra" devotions in the faith, like Marian Apparitions, St. Faustina, or even Adoration and the Rosary. Now, I don't believe any of what I said constitutes sinful behavior, and we're all free to have the kind of preferences he seems to have.

I think what he wants is to develop people into Catholics who are critical thinkers, who test what the Church says against their own reason, and aren't afraid to say something if they disagree. I think he wants people to know about Church history, both the dirty laundry and the clean, and to understand that a lot of things have changed in the Church over the centuries. I can appreciate a lot of that, but my problem with it is that you really need to make sure that someone is well formed and spiritually mature before you can start throwing a lot of that at them. And what I see is a lot of people missing just basic catechesis. 

Sorry, I had to roll my eyes.  I get that people don't always find adoration or the rosary easy (I'm pointing directly at myself), but to consider them "extra" would seem a bit much and raise a bit of a red flag for me.  But that's neither here nor there in regards to you teaching a class.

 

Critical thinking is great and all that but I too share the concern of having a solid basis (maybe adapt the baltimore catechism - don't tell them you're using it but use it as a guideline - it will definitely touch upon very touchy topics: ie intermarriage, etc and set the tone of why we are here on earth, without that basis, everything just really doesn't make sense).

 

The thing with the buzzword "critical thinker" is that it in reality it comes across as cynical questioning of the faith.  As well, it is getting harder and harder to find people who are truly blindly obeying the Church and a very white-washed version of her history.  A lot of work needs to be done discussing how the Church was, and actually situate her in the past, both the good and the bad.  So much popular history, and a good portion of academic history, is focused on showing how Catholics have been a priest-ridden people.  And I'll stop here before I get into a full-blown rant.

[PhuturePriest]

Certainly he did not say that. He knows canon law too well to make that mistake. I will have to see references. Not posted here though; send it on FB.

 

 

I share Nihil Obstat's skepticism as I'm not aware of Fr. Hesse ever making such claims. 

 

I shall message a video of him saying those very words to both of you.

[Nihil Obstat]

Thanks dude.

[PhuturePriest]

I share Nihil Obstat's skepticism as I'm not aware of Fr. Hesse ever making such claims. 

 

I cannot message you and do not wish to further hijack Basilisa's thread, so I made my own addressing a particular talk given by Father Hesse, giving exact moments he said the things I claimed and even wrote them out for the sake of accessibility: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/136733-father-hesse/

[Basilisa Marie]

Truthfinder: Oh, trust me, I hear ya. A lot of what I've said is very much me inferring from observing the way he does things and what he says. We have things like adoration at the church, but I think our deacon mostly runs it. It'd be so much easier if my boss would just come out and said "hey, I want you to use this series or this company for adult stuff" but he doesn't. But then again I guess he wouldn't have a PA for faith formation if he just wanted to run it all himself. Thanks for the Baltimore Catechism idea. :)

FP (I guess it's PP but you're still FP in my brain):  :like2:

[veritasluxmea]

Check this out, maybe this is what you're looking for? I've done this before and it's solidly Catholic but wouldn't be too liberal or traditional to someone who has a beef with that.

 

http://www.christlife.org/discover/

Edited February 23, 2015 by veritasluxmea

[PhuturePriest]

Truthfinder: Oh, trust me, I hear ya. A lot of what I've said is very much me inferring from observing the way he does things and what he says. We have things like adoration at the church, but I think our deacon mostly runs it. It'd be so much easier if my boss would just come out and said "hey, I want you to use this series or this company for adult stuff" but he doesn't. But then again I guess he wouldn't have a PA for faith formation if he just wanted to run it all himself. Thanks for the Baltimore Catechism idea. :)

FP (I guess it's PP but you're still FP in my brain):  :like2:

 

Oh, trust me, I very much prefer "FP" over "PP" for numerous reasons, one of which I will not say for the sake of decency. :|

[beatitude]

Aid to the Church in Need has a beautiful little catechism that's solidly orthodox, written in a very lucid and reader-friendly way, with some lovely medieval-style devotional illustrations. It was designed with RCIA and confirmation groups in mind so I expect it would be equally suited to an apologetics class. I really like it and it's one of the first books I give to people interested in becoming Catholic. (As a bonus, all the proceeds from the sales go to ACN's ministries for persecuted Christians.)