History Of The Inquisition

[Bruce S]

[color=red] that was totally rude personal attack,[/color].

Edited June 16, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Guest JeffCR07]

Here's what I don't get Bruce: The Holy Father said the following:

[quote]The Holy Father recalled that on March 12, 2000, during a special service for the "Day of Forgiveness," he led the Church in asking for pardon for "the errors committed in the service of the truth, when unethical methods were used." The Pope said that the study of the Inquisition should be understood in the context of that prayer[/quote]

and

[quote]As the second millennium of Christianity comes to an end, it is appropriate therefore that the Church assumes a greater awareness of the sins of its sons and daughters[/quote]

Now, when I read those two quotes, I get the distinct impression that its pretty safe to assume the following

In looking back at all the sins committed by [i]sons and daughters[/i] of the Church, the Church [i]herself[/i] would like to apologize and ask for forgiveness towards [i]those sons and daughters[/i] that sinned when they thought they were doing what is right.

That makes perfect sense to me...Moreover:

Bruce, I think you would be VERY hard pressed to verifiably prove that [i]every single thing[/i] done by an Inquisitor was immoral. In fact, I'm pretty sure that throughout this post, people have established that there were many Inquisitors who argued AGAINST extreme punishments.

Here's the thing Bruce: As you have so elequently discribed throughout this thread, there were a whole lot of people that dealt with the Inquisition. We all believe in "innocent until [i]proven[/i] guilty" here. That having been said, I highly doubt that you can prove that NO ONE, genuinely saw the error in what they were teaching after talking to an Inquisitor.

I mean, I can't even count the number of times I say something, I'm wrong, someone explains why I'm wrong, it makes sense, and I apologize.

Somehow, I really doubt that such a case NEVER happened. And unless you can prove that that kind of thing NEVER happened, you can't have a "blanket" apology.

The Holy Father has, in his example of humility, had the Church formally apologize for all the deeds that her sons and daughters did that merits apology.

Just because SOME Muslims attacked the World Trade Center on 9/11 doesn't mean that ALL Muslims need to apologize, or that Islam itself needs to issue a blanket apology. They didnt, nor should they. Everyone knows that itsn't what Islam as a whole is about. In the same way, everyone should know that the murders that happened during the Inquisition arn't what Catholicism is about.

Its just really sad that there are so many people like you who are trying to convince the world otherwise...

- Your Brother in Christ, and always praying for you, Jeff

[Bruce S]

This is hard to say without sounding badly.

We’re all sinners, of course.

But many Catholics on this thread, act as if they’d had moral lobotomies that robbed them of a realistic sense shame about the past, and present Inquistions and oppressions of Christians by the Catholic Church.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Bruce S

[Mickey's_Girl]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 15 2004, 02:16 PM'] but hey, I've had to keep pretty civil, and the FACT that MY fellow co-religionists, the Pentecostals, ARE right now, this very day, being harrassed, hounded, fleeing FROM Catholic Inquistion-LIKE actions around the world as we type here, safely in our caccoon of wealth and privilige, is not just my thoughts, but my passion. My denomination, the Assembly of God, has a very vigorous outreach in nations that are almost totally Roman Catholic, although our Evangelism magazine tries NOT to ever mention the words, "Roman Catholic Oppression" if you know the score, and the climate, and who is running things around the world, it is VERY easy to see the threatened Catholic church, seeing hundreds of thousands, and even millions walking out the door, as behind the threats, church burnings, firings, ostracizings, lootings, and beatings that Pentecostals face today, this very day, in Catholic nations. [/quote]
Ah. I see. I've been deceived all this time into thinking that the AG was evangelizing (mostly) people whose Catholicism was nominal at best. Who didn't much care about God one way or another.

Yeah, I've been a faithful reader of the Pentecostal Evangel World Missions magazine. I see you say they edit the "real" info out. Why are they "afraid" to tell the "truth"? And what is your secret source of info, and why should I find it credible? And I suppose all those missionaries that have come to my church over the years were "afraid" to speak out about the persecution.

And oh, yes, I suppose any persecution of pentecostals that's happening has NOTHING to do with secular politics or worldly power. No, it's all religion. And it's all one-sided; no Catholics are being persecuted either.

I'm AG, so at least you can't throw the anti-Catholic names at me. Let's get real: all people of faith, everywhere, can be persecuted by someone or another. People do things in the name of religion that have nothing to do with God, only themselves. People are also deceived into thinking that they're doing good things for God, when they aren't. Every type of Christian can do this, and there isn't some big "Catholic Church" conspiracy.

Do you know what a mess some parts of Latin and South America are? Who knows what twisted motivations people have?

Oh, and in Brazil, at least, Pentecostals and Evangelicals have political power:

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/20040607/ts_latimes/movedbythespirittogovern"]Moved By the Spirit to Govern[/url]

MG

[Guest JeffCR07]

But Bruce, there I just don't think you're right. I know, for my part, that I AM terribly ashamed of what some Inquisitors did. Not just as a Catholic, but, on a broader level, as a Christian.

We arn't cold-hearted monsters. I am just as ashamed of the unjustified killings in Salem as I am of the unjustified killings of the Inquisition.

Over-zealous fanatics, acting in what they, as individuals, feel is for the good, is a problem that ALL Christians have. No, all religions in general.

But just as I know that not all Puritans are at fault for the killing of old, single women back during the "witch hunt" I think the people on this site just want others to know that its the same way with us.

The Puritans weren't wrong if it was their original intent was (and I think this is true) to bring people away from false-doctrine and back into the fold. But we all acknowledge that many people took it [i]way[/i] too far. I hope everyone on this site is praying for the souls of those who did.

It is the same exact thing with the Inquisition. Many terrible things did happen. Innocent people were unjustly punished. Guilty people were disporportionately punished. But these punishments were at the hands of overzealous people, and I hope, Bruce, that you will be praying for their souls along with me.

But I also pray that people will come to understand that it is not the Doctrine of the Faith, or the Church herself, but people who are the sinners.

Bruce, if we come off as being cold, then I speak for everyone when I say we are sorry. The unjust actions of our brothers and sisters cuts deep, and it cuts hard, and truly, we feel it.

I think the best way to sum up the actions of those people on this board would be with an analogy.

Your family consists of your mother and father, yourself, and your brother. Your brother commits a terrible crime: murder. You are deeply hurt by his actions. Then you overhear people speaking ill of your mother and father, who have always poured out love upon you and your brother. They claim that your parents are "bad parents" because your brother committed murder. But you know that they are NOT bad parents. When you overhear people speaking thus, wouldn't you go to your parents' defense?

This is simply what we are doing. But keep in mind, the murder committed by our brother is still felt by us

[Justified Saint]

Interesting article Bruce, but yeah: [color=red]context[/color] - ever heard of it?

What were those "hardball things" you kept ranting on about? Can't you stand by [b]any[/b] of your slanders with at least some sort of intellecutal honesty? I didn't think so.

[Mickey's_Girl]

Justified Saint--

Great avatar!!

MG

[Justified Saint]

Well, thank you very much!

<tips hat>

Wait - I don't have a hat!

[Winchester]

[quote]99% were ARRESTED however, most had thier lives ruined, a huge majority of them were TORTURED, but hey, that doesn't count now does it.

[/quote]
Source, Bruce?



Bruce. Next post is either going to be about giving you time to marshal your forces or it's going to be an apology for not dealing with anything honestly. You won't address my statements head on, you won't answer questions. I am left with the impression that you are merely bigoted and not informed. Prove me wrong, Bruce. All I wanted was a civil discussion; you instituted the capital letters, bold print, and all manner of dodgery (is that a word? It should be)

I have fun sometimes playing with people, but I'm ready to move on to something. I've already learned about the inquisition. Not the cartoon you refer to, but the actual thing, warts and all. You have oversimplified and painted yourself into a sad little corner that you feel like defending. Noone is saying the inquisition went off as it should have. They are all saying there was bad. The only person saying it was all one way is you, Bruce.

Be honest, be intelligent, or be quiet.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Jun 18 2004, 04:11 PM']
Be honest, be intelligent, or be quiet. [/quote]
If I ever started a forum, this statement would be my "guideline". Dust, what do you think?

[dUSt]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jun 18 2004, 10:40 PM'] If I ever started a forum, this statement would be my "guideline". Dust, what do you think? [/quote]
Sounds good to me.

[Justified Saint]

Ah, here we go.

[img]http://www.chesterton.org/art/gkcDan_grey.JPG[/img]

Top o' the morning to you!

[Guest JeffCR07]

Is Bruce still posting on this board? I would really like to hear his rebuttle to either my previous post, or Winchester's argument itself, but is he no longer posting here?

[cmotherofpirl]

He is no longer here.

[Mickey's_Girl]

JS:

I'm LOVING the GKC!!! :wub:

MG