History Of The Inquisition

[PedroX]

Bruce,

If, and since as usual you will not cite your sources I must say "if", one third of all land in England was owned by the Catholic Church, how does it follow that 1/3 of all people were serfs to the Catholic Church?

Have you read any English history?

[quote]They were burned, tortured, impoverished, by the Catholic Church. Amazing that they would do horrid things to the people that did this for a thousand years to them. NOT.[/quote]

What part of English history is this from? And, before you start, don't even think of quoting "Fox's Book of Martyrs" to me. I'd rather you quote Jack Chick.

What is amazing is how much hatred you have for the Catholic Church. How much bitterness you have stored up. I have never defended killing, torture, etc. I simply ask that you tell the truth.

peace...

[MC Just]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Jun 15 2004, 07:31 PM'] I simply ask that you tell the truth.

peace... [/quote]
yeah right, they'll tell you the perverted version of the truth. As usual. I've never witnessed so much ignorance in my life. It's sickening.... I'll be praying for Bruce and Lumberjack, along with budge...

[Justified Saint]

Good idea Paladin, but let's not look at England - let's just ignore it all and justify it in the manner as Bruce has so brilliantly displayed.

There just really is no balance in the Protestant polemic is there? Does the fact that Calvin's Geneva was the precursor of the Nazi Gestapo bother them? Nah When you turn the ball around it never matters. But that is the whole point of the Protestant polemic - trying to misdirect and distract you from the issues.

Well, let's move along - nothing to see here. There is a brick wall around the corner, we might find more luck there.

[Justified Saint]

Such an astute observation Paladin. Why have Protestants sold their souls to the secularists?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Jun 15 2004, 09:06 PM'] Such an astute observation Paladin. Why have Protestants sold their souls to the secularists? [/quote]
You have read my post wrong. Because it can also be interpreted [b]"Why have Secularists sold their souls to the Protestants?"[/b], but it's not. When it comes to controversial historical events in which the Church is involved, both parties enjoy twisting history to fulfill their Anti-Catholic hunger pains. Yes, the Crusades and the Inquisition had their down points, but one most understand who was behind those specific injustices and the context they were in.

I am in no way, implying that [b]all Secularists[/b] or [b]all Protestants[/b] do this. But unfortunately [b]many[/b] do, if it be intentional or out of ignorance.

[daugher-of-Mary]

[quote]It was WRONG, and IMMORAL to strike back at your enemy, Jesus told us to forgive and turn the other cheek, BUT, since the people COULD NOT READ SCRIPTURE since they were DENIED the bible in English, I guess them NOT following it is understandable, since only 5% of the entire nation had ever had a bible in thier hands that they could actually read.[/quote]

Bruce, take a look at the history of the Bible:

The Vulgate (Latin version) was prepared by St. Jerome between 382-404 at the request of St. Damasus I. Latin was the popular language at that time period although many were illiterate. Even if they had been handed a Bible, they couldn't read it.
Parts of the Bible were translated into Saxon, the language of England, starting with Caedmon, a monk, in 670. Remember, illiteracy rates were high, and even if people could read it simply wasn't practical to write out the ENTIRE Bible by hand! No printing press. The English language as we know it today appeared 1020-15th century and translations were produced.
Let's keep this in perspective...the Catholic Church decided what books would go into the Bible, she preserved those books for 1500 years by hand copying them, preserved the Bible from error, and has every right to call the Bible her book.
I got all my info from [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/index2.htm"]here[/url]. Check it out!

[Winchester]

Bruce,

Wow, where to begin (hang on, let me adjust the settings on my mechanical heart....). That was interesting, but honestly, uninformative and simply not on topic enough to really hit home. It was visually nice; I've seen that style of type somewhere before...yes, on a letter urging me to buy a vacuum cleaner through the mail.

I didn't buy the vacuum cleaner, either.

Number one: Mentioning all the corruption in the Church doesn't do anything for me. It doesn't shake my faith, doesn't make me wonder "Gee, are the doctrines true, when Father Grom is launching nuclear bombs at moms and dogs?" And why? you may ask (Or maybe [b]WHY?[/b], if you're so inclined to provide emphasis so I [i]get it[/i]) Because none of the folkses is perfect, nor do they have to be for the Church to be true. She's beyond defilement, I believe Christ. So you can save your fingers, unless you want to do it to scare the others, then go right ahead. To say it another way, Christ told people to obey the Phars and Sadds, but not act like them; he did not unseat them or declare Judaism invalid because of the corruption of the leaders because Truth is beyond taint, and I believe Catholicism (not Catholics, not priests, nuns, altar boys, Ted Kennedy) to be true.

[quote]Nope, for YOU it is analytical, cold, indiffernt to the sufferings,..ad infinitum[/quote]

Well, I don't know how to deal with that, as it resembles not what I actually said. I gave advice regarding interpreting complex occurence in history, and advocated not allowing knee-jerk reactions to cloud sound judgement. I in now way called for a lack of compassion, I asked for rational analysis. You may spin it how you like, I suppose, that's the fun of rhetoric.
Let me restate it another way. I'm a fireman. I hold lives in my hands all the time. I've walked into horrible situations, and if I am not cold, collected, proffesional, people die. I cna break down later, and ask my family if I ever have. The time for freaking out has to put off until the facts are in. That's all I said.


Bible issue: In which country, at which time and under whose law was possessing a Bible in the vernacular punishable by death? I'm asking.

Current violence against Protestants: You know the topic, Bruce. But heck, I'll indulge. Perhaps something could be done, perhaps something has been done, perhaps the Pope is too weak or surrounded by nabobs to do anything. How that touches upon the procedures of the inquisition I know not. Look to my first paragraph to get my reaction toward the horrors commited by members of my religion. Tares and wheat, brother, tares and wheat.

CDF:
[quote]Ah, the new fancy name to cover up that the Catholic Church is still doing the same thing, but now, they are oh, so sophisticated[/quote]
That was so funny I just had to post it. The cover up that everyone knows about. We've had 2000 years to perfect our conspiracy policies, but everyone knows.

Seriously, the topic is the Inquisition, and I asked you which one. Answer at some point, please. Like I said "off your turf"

[quote]The heck it wasn't. Jews were given the choice, convert, or leave, and IF they dared to try to pretend they were real converts[/quote]
Where when by whom. It will make it easier for me to find. My books mentionthe evil with the good.

Alright, already.

Now, in seeking to publish a book about Catholicism, one should seek approval of the book, which comes from the Censor Librorum and an Imprimatur from a local Bishop. [quote]From Church History by Fr. John Laux: "We shall not attempt to defend the Inquisition. We cannot approve the cruelty of the extreme measures adopted, not only on account of their cruelty, but because they undoubtedly led to hypocrisy and the simulation of orthodoxy."[/quote] I'm asking for cool heads and discussion of all aspect, not approval. Nor is there a vast cover up, rather caution about blanket condemnation. Tares and wheat, folks, not just tares.
[quote]Same book, quoting an inquisitor: "...he must not harden his heartto the point of refusing delays or relaxations of punishment according to circumstances and places..." It goes on, but I'm lazy. It advises care and zeal for the truth and to be "circumspect" in doubtful matters.[/quote]
That has both of the things mentioned above, but it talks about the mistresses and corruption and pomp, all that hoohah.

[quote]Winchester:States saw heretics as dangerous. Heretics were as dangerous to the social order then as Al Qaida is to us now.[/quote]
[quote]Bruce: DANGEROUS??!!

To whom, what?[/quote]
[quote]to the social order[/quote]
Please don't make me answer questions you answer in the quote you put up yourself. If you're that upset, then take five and come back when you're able to read what I typed. Passion happens.
That society was tied in with Catholicism intimately. Hence death penalties by the state (and I know there was corruption, so save your fingertips)

[quote]In England, thousands were tortured, hundreds burned alive.

The ONLY charge brought against those poor souls was possessing a Tyndale ENGLISH translation of the New Testament. Yes. Just possesing the word of God in a language that one could read, was grounds for torture, forfeiture of lands and position, and torture then death.

[/quote]
During what years and by whom and who is your source. I'm not saying it didn't happen, so stop rolling your eyes, I'm just trying to find it in my books. Of course, the CDF has probably tapped my phoneline and...what's that noise? I smell incense and bratwurst breath....oh God! It's Ratzinger!!!!!!


No it wasn't everything is fine. I am okay. Buy German.


[quote]That is the reality of the Catholic Church, power, murder, corruption, sexual immorality, pomp, worldly glory, and that is still the Catholic Church in much of the world today.
[/quote]
Sounds about right. No argument there. I hasten to point out that MCCs, UCCs, CCCs etc. are doing quite well and not sinning in any way, much like UUs and anyone who doesn't own a St. Joseph edition Bible.
Everyone sins, and no one's saying they don't.
Save those finger tips.

[quote]I've said what I had to say, and I'm offering up your heart now to God, may He, in His wisdom, cause you to repent of this pride of denomination, that has blinded you to these sufferings, then and now, caused by a system that is evil in much that it has done, and is doing, here, in the USA, to the poor victims, and around the world to Protestants, and those who want to leave the Catholic Church[/quote]
I met a gypsy once who said she could read hearts. It cost me five bucks to find out she was wrong, and it cost me practically nothing but time to see you don't have that ability either. I'm ticking people slowly off my list, and I haven't found one who can read my heart.
You seek to do that; I advise you to start small: read what I write.

The upshot: You've put approval "passes" and all manner of things into my mouth and frankly, your hardball is weak. It doesn't reach the plate. I am offended, as is any man who works his ass off to do the right thing only to have some know it all slander him because said know it all can't be bothered to read what's written without putting in his own cynical subtext.

Bruce, I get you feel strongly. I get that you are fighting what you think is evil. That's good. But you're going about it all wrong. I can sling words like you can in my sleep, so let's us just stick with a discussion before I break a sweat trying to keep my finger away from the caps lock button, okay?

[Winchester]

Budge,

[quote]Again, I'm not saying you have to think it's good or even wise,[/quote][quote]Now, the Inquisition was not a mob burning down houses. It was a proper court. It could be corrupted. The Spanish Inquisition was co-opted by the government and was the worst of the five inquisitions.[/quote]

[quote]In some instances, I'm sure you would agree to the good works of inquisitors. [/quote]
Some also means "not all," though it appears an overlooked word. I even gave example, so what exactly is the problem? [quote]Don't blanket the entire idea, look at the individual cases. It's complex.
[/quote]
Entire: the whole Don't: do not. Maybe they don't use conjunctions where you're from. Not asking for approval of all the Inquisition, just saying be careful.

[quote]Records. Technology sadly did not permit xeroxing or uploading to computers. Also lacking were electric lights and sprinklers to diminish the likelihood or damage of fires. Travel wasn't so easy, either and air conditioning was limited to those fat cats in the Vatican (ha ha). Records got destroyed, that's reality.
Yes the Vatican has records, but imagine the volumes of documents througth the ages, and the shameful lack of the Dewey decimal system. Some records exist. Many, in fact. Good luck, though, unless you have years and knowledge of ancient languages at your disposal.
The Pope isn't saying we don't have records, he's saying things take time and knowledge. A knee-jerk might make you happy, but it probably won't be accurate.
The pope didn't say murdering people (a judgement on the intent of the act you simply aren't in a position to make, especially in such a blanket matter), [/quote]
Sorry this didn't fit in your carefully crafted insult, but it's pretty important. Feel free to copy it and have someone simplify it for you.
[quote]mitigating factors did not excuse people doing wrong things while trying to do the right[/quote]
Well looky here "wrong" things. My oh my, is that approval?


Your misrepresentation of me is disgusting. Maybe not inentional, like my above questioning of your literacy. But I gave you quarter once, and your accused me of being a monster. Maybe next time you can ask for clarification to make sure of what you understood. It's called benefit of the doubt, and now perhaps we can both practice it.

[quote]I don't stoop to edits or deletes of my own material.
[/quote]Irony is not lost on this little chicky, and I never could pass the chance to self-mortify. Above was deleted a post reacting to someone saying I could watch someone burn to death without concern. Those who know me know why that tripped the old switch. Ain't ptsd (or whatever they call it now) a well, that word with the "b" in it?

[Paladin D]

For God's sake, address Winchester's posts [b]Bruce[/b] and [b]Badge[/b], instead of side-stepping them.

[Winchester]

And you can take that advice to the Empire.

Thanks, you evil oppressor of the Republic.

[Justified Saint]

Anti-Catholics aren't programmed to engage in discussion but rather just to spout out their rhetoric.

Oh and thanks for the clarification Paladin, but of course the point is that the alliance between Protestants and secularists is often an old one.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

It might be better to simply close this convaluted thread and start another one with the original topic. But then I'd just be accused of being a control freak for trying to keep everyone on TOPIC.

Guess you can't please everyone all of the time.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]The heck it wasn't. Jews were given the choice, convert, or leave, and IF they dared to try to pretend they were real converts, but held onto a Jewish holiday, like Passover, they were informed on, turned over to the Spanish Inquistion, put on the rack, had their bodies mangled, and many were stangled.[/quote]

Like Winchester, I might have to take you to task on this one. I know, we shouldn't be questioning anything you write but forgive me as I write on.

The expulsion of the Jews from Spain was something that happened over a decade after the Spanish Inquisition was started and indeed very much in the declining "terror" that the Inquisition immediately effected at its outset. As usual, the expulsion was mandated by the sovereigns of Spain. The idea was conceived well after the start of the Spanish Inquisition. Indeed, unbaptized Jews enjoyed the most security up until the time of their expulsion. So yeah, the Inquisition had nothing to do with Jews.

Not suprising, you continue to misconstrue the Catholic populace with the Catholic Church. Indeed, at times they are the same but the vast majority of the time we are talking about two different things. We return to the fact that people hijack religion and do much evil in its name. This is true of Islam, Judaism, Catholicism, Protestantism etc. The fact that Luther with his virulent rhetoric and Protestant revolt set the stage for the Holocaust is not sufficent grounds to call Protestantism an intrinsically evil and corrupt system of beliefs. Sure, Luther was its founder but his successors even to this day give the Reformation new and different meanings and the evils advocated by Luther are definiely not apart of their values. We could spend all day citing the numerous and deplorable evils done by individuals in the name of Protestantism but to what purpose? By your reckoning then, all religion is corrupt and evil. If so, then why just single out Catholicism?

[Bruce S]

Surprise!!! Wow, imagine that, the Catholic Church report issued yesterday found the Catholic Inquisition was not as "bad" as thought.

{ The mafia investigating the mafia found the Cosa Nostra was a fabrication too }

[quote]New Study Puts Inquisition in Historical Context

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 12:00:00 AM GMT

Vatican, Jun. 15 (CWNews.com) - At a press conference in Rome on June 15, Vatican officials insisted that any adequate understanding of the Inquisition-- or of the Pope's request for pardon for the excesses of the Inquisition-- must be based on a proper understanding of the historical context.

The Vatican today released a new historical study on the Inquisition, containing the results of an international scholarly conference organized in October 1998, as part of the preparation for the Jubilee Year 2000. The book-length study is entitled, simply The Inquisition .

Three cardinals participated in the press conference introducing the work: Cardinal Roger Etchegaray (bio - news), the chairman of the committee that organized the Jubilee celebrations; Cardinal Georges Cottier, the theologian of the papal household, who chaired the 1998 conference; and Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, the Vatican archivist, whose office has custody of records from the Inquisition dating back to 13th century. Agostino Borromeo, an Italian historian who edited the book, also addressed the media.

In a letter that Cardinal Etchegary read at the press conference, Pope John Paul II (bio - news) said that the scholarly study of the Inquisition, complete with its excesses, was a useful purification for the Catholic Church in preparation for the Jubilee celebration. The Pope wrote:

As the second millennium of Christianity comes to an end, it is appropriate therefore that the Church assumes a greater awareness of the sins of its sons and daughters when recalling the circumstances in which, throughout history, they deviated from the spirit of Christ and his Gospel, offering to the world the spectacle of ways of thinking and acting that were true forms of "counter-witness and scandal," instead of witness to a life inspired by the values of faith.
Pope John Paul went on to say that, before asking pardon for the works of the Inquisition, it was important "to know exactly what are the facts, and to recognize the shortcomings with respect to the evangelical needs." This, he explained, was the primary reason for a serious historical study.

The Holy Father recalled that on March 12, 2000, during a special service for the "Day of Forgiveness," he led the Church in asking for pardon for "the errors committed in the service of the truth, when unethical methods were used." The Pope said that the study of the Inquisition should be understood in the context of that prayer.

Pope John Paul also cautioned that in discussions of the Inquisition, the modern world should be careful to distinguish between "the acts of certain members of the faith and the dominant mentality of an era."

The final publication of The Inquisition was delayed not by opposition, but by a series of health problems suffered by the editors, Cardinal Cottier told the media. In the course of their studies, Cardinal Etchegaray said, the historians were encouraged by the Pope to "fear no one and nothing, and still less to fear the truth."

Professor Borromeo said that the new work should serve as "a point of reference" for future works on the Inquisition. He said that the participants in the historical conference-- which brought together 31 scholars from Europe and North America-- had sought to examine the Inquisition objectively, in a forum that was "exempt from controversy or any apologetic nature."

The Inquisition includes essays by the 31 specialists, examining the methods employed by the Inquisition, and the procedures of tribunals involved in the search for heresy. The historians treated the Inquisition as a single phenomenon, although technically there were different tribunals in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, and Germany. Cardinal Etchegary explained that these tribunals shared an essential characteristic insofar as they were "ecclesiastical courts set up exclusively to judge offenses against the faith." The historical study-- which began with national archives and also used previously secret Vatican archives that were opened to researchers in 1998-- sought to answer several popular questions about the Inquisition, such as the extent to which torture was used, and the number of people put to death. The historians found that the number of people executed for heresy was considerably lower than widely imagined. Although the final statistics are uncertain-- in part because the Inquisition extended over several centuries-- the researchers found that in the Spanish Inquisition, among the 125,000 cases tried, less than 1 percent ended with the death penalty.

This article courtesy of Catholic World News. To subscribe or for further information, contact subs@cwnews.com or visit www.cwnews.com
[/quote]

I guess we can show this now to the families in South and Latin America, the ones who are under attack by the Catholic Church ... now that the "Paperwork is in Order"

Only 1% ended in the death penalty!! Amazing, wow, wow.

99% were ARRESTED however, most had thier lives ruined, a huge majority of them were TORTURED, but hey, that doesn't count now does it.

Yepper.

I was looking in my bible last night, and I found it, the place where Jesus said ... ARREST AND TORTURE fellow CHRISTIANS, who don't agree with YOUR version of me....

I was buried in the "Book of Forgettaboutit" written by the Apostle "Doubting Thomas"

[Paladin D]

[b]Bruce[/b], address Winchester's post please.