History Of The Inquisition

[Guest JeffCR07]

I would just like to comment on a post from a little ways back:

[quote]You know when I see Catholics "defend" the indefensible" It raises endless alarm bells for me. How could anyone in Christ defend murder that was sanctioned by the church? How could ANYONE defend this?

The Inquistions were NOTHING but PURE EVIL.

Id rather trust in Gods Word then a church capable of these evils. thats what it comes down to for me.[/quote]

I'd like to draw an analogy to what you are saying here: Because some of the Inquisitions did things (like murder) which are, rightly and truly, evil, then this stains the Church and Magisterium as well as all of her teachings, as evil. I just can't agree with this argument. To me, it would be like saying that, because Martin Luther wrote [i]some[/i] writing that was blatantly anti-semetic (evil, according to pretty much any christian faith) that makes ALL of this teachings unacceptable, and that it would be unjustifiable to follow what he said.

Moreover, I would also like to draw a distinction. As Catholics, we do not define the Church as mearly those people who happen to be in positions of authority at a given time: it is very much more than that. First off, we believe that the Church on Earth (Church Militant) is, in the big picture, only one branch, with the Church also extending to include those souls in Purgatory, as well as those already in union with God in Heaven. In addition to that, we believe that the Church on Earth spans across the ages, and includes all of the Catholic Faithful throughout history.

Thus, to claim that the actions of certain individuals, in a certain period of time, can somehow falsify the Truth's of the Church, would be like saying that the sins of a Christian somehow falsify the Truth of salvation through Christ's sacrifice.

Truly, I don't think anyone is trying to argue that those murders and tortures were not evil, but to say that they somehow [i]illegitimize[/i] the Church just doesn't hold water for me...

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Budge]

For me they do point to the Catholic church as NOT having any type of special charisma. Remember this was stuff ordered from the TOP down.

Itd be different if the Catholic church just repented and admitted of the evil and admitted it INSTEAD of EXCUSES LIKE:

A) "Only six thousand died" (lowering the numbers to such low numbers as to be unbelievable even to historians) see above. Even the encyclopedia admits to numbers in the 6 figures.

B) "It was the state's fault" "The church didnt put anyone to death, the state did it" (so what? the idea of heresy was set by the church)

C) "The Inquistion was a good thing--it kept the heretics at bay" (even worse) I discovered a priest saying this on EWTN on questions section.

This site is full of such excuses. ITS A CATHOLIC SITE I AM QUOTING FROM

[url="http://biblia.com/christianity/pope.htm"]http://biblia.com/christianity/pope.htm[/url]

Now we are supposed to be open-minded about the Inquistion......I dont think so....

[quote]According to Pope John Paul II, “The Inquisition belongs to a tormented phase in the history of the Church, which . . . Christians [should] examine in a spirit of sincerity and [b]open-mindedness.[/b]” (Pope John Paul II, “Address to the International Symposium on the Inquisition,” October 31, 1998.)[/quote]

another revealing quote from the Pope--(I find this absurd given that the Vatican has to have the old records)

[quote][b]Only when historical science has been able to determine the true facts[/b], will theologians and the Church's Magisterium itself be in a position to make an objectively well-founded judgement."[/quote]

[quote]The Church's Magisterium certainly cannot perform an ethical act, such as asking for forgiveness, without first being accurately informed about the situation at the time.[/quote]

[b]Is the Pope trying to seriously tell us that in their vast historical records they have no proof or historical documentation about the Inquistion?[/b]

I have found historical records even from Fordham University that are on line

[quote]Only when historical science has been able to determine the true facts, will theologians and the Church's Magisterium itself be in a position to make an objectively well-founded judgement.[/quote]


Pope John Paul II says:

[quote]"Yet the consideration of mitigating factors does not exonerate the Church from the obligation to express [b]profound regret for the weaknesses of so many of her sons and daughters who sullied her face, preventing her from fully mirroring the image of her crucified Lord, [/b]the supreme witness of patient love and of humble meekness. From these painful moments of the past a lesson can be drawn for the future, leading all Christians to adhere fully to the sublime principle stated by the Council: “The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with both gentleness and power.” (Pope John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, no. 35, quoting Vatican II, Declaration on Religious Freedom Dignitatis Humanae, no. 1.)[/quote]

Pope John Paul II calls the Inquistion the use of violence in the SERVICE OF TRUTH. What truth? There is no truth connected to this. Murdering people is not truth.
We did it for the good of the state :x

[quote]The good of the Church likewise began to be seen as integral to the good of the State[/quote]

[b]This CCC utterly sickens me.[/b]

[quote]IN times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. [b]Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood.[/b] In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors (no. 2298) ".

Notice they place the blame on the governments. They also mention the thing about not shedding blood which is why diabolical tortures were invented but doesnt go on to explain why this was wrong.


All finger-pointing IMO. No responsibility. [b]Not ever just coming out and saying the Church was wrong.[/b] Just like the sex scandals. Have these men ever heard of just saying WE WERE WRONG?

PROTESTANTS WHO DID THIS WERE WRONG. THOSE IN SALEM AND MORE WERE IN DEEP EVIL But Catholics its constant excuses! This site and speech are utter examples of this!

Here is one of the evil Inquistion torture devices...

[color=red][Edited by Cmom] It gone.[/color]


Europe is utterly full of museums showing this stuff, my husband has been at them. Yeah right...only 6,000 people.

Catholics that seem to be in utter denial about how evil the Inqusition was.

Look at what this blog calls itself:

[url="http://lidless-eye.blogspot.com/"]http://lidless-eye.blogspot.com/[/url]

They called themselves "The Inquistors" and The Lidless Eye Inquistion like the Inquistion was something good.

Edited June 15, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[PedroX]

Budge,

I am not sure what has twisted your soul into bitterness, but I pray that God might heal the scars.

Your links demonstrate that you are not interested in thoughtful discourse on this subject. The site www.shootingiron.com is a deplorable sight by someone who is obviously not well. His personal testiomonys on the page attest to someone with an unhealthly and eroticised fascination with death and pain, and his articles blend truth with fancy leaving little to recommend the site. Really, this is so far beneath intellectual debate that it beggars the imagination.

Your link to the "Lidless Eye" blog simply shows your bias. In your attempt to show that the Catholic Church is apostate, and in love with violence, you neglect to examine your evidence closely. The author of this blog takes his reference from Sauron (Tolkien) and keeps a close eye on the radical right fringes of Catholicism. His lead article today is on the sedevanticist schism.

Please engage in civil debate here. Your knee-jerk sophomoric hatred for Holy Mother Church is repulsive and beneath anyone who claims to be a Christian. It serves no one, least of all Christ to engage in such slander and calmuny.

peace...

[Budge]

I should have put a warning for that site, I use it only for the picture. But Ive seen that picture in books.

The Inquistion really happened. Now youre starting with the ad hominen stuff.

I know who coined the phrase Lidless Eye, Mark Shea, I have read his blog.

I still think its rather over the top they give the nod to the Inquisition for the name of their site, fighting sedevancantism or not.

Please dont play the hater card. I think defending the INDEFENSIBLE--ie the Inquistion is more hateful.

[cmotherofpirl]

Have you read Mark Sheas' discussion of the Inquisition?

[Apotheoun]

I enjoy reading the lidless eye blog, and I have a friend who writes for it.

[Justified Saint]

Budge, Pope John Paul II has made it a personal duty for himself to apologize for all the wrongdoings of the Church in the past and the Inquisition is indeed one of them.

Catholics are trying to understand the Inquisition in it historical perspective and trying to reach a synthesis of facts and indeed you can do all that and still uphold a standard of scholarship. There must be some balance out there, afterall the Reformers themselves were avid religious persecutors and they openly preached the suppression of others. Forgive us for not being content with your bigoted history and harmful indoctrination that has polluted the world for centuries. In the words of Pedro, your hateful comments are the of the same substance that incite hateful violence against others (i.e. Catholics).

[Budge]

Ive read Mark Sheas opinions but not about Inquistion.

Is there a link?

[quote]
Catholics are trying to understand the Inquisition in it historical perspective and trying to reach a synthesis of facts and indeed you can do all that and still uphold a standard of scholarship. There must be some balance out there, afterall the Reformers themselves were avid religious persecutors and they openly preached the suppression of others. Forgive us for not being content with your bigoted history and harmful indoctrination that has polluted the world for centuries. In the words of Pedro, your hateful comments are the of the same substance that incite hateful violence against others (i.e. Catholics). [/quote]

The problem is to avoid bias on either side. When I see a defense of this stuff, it truly worries me. Some catholics are deeply concerned and dont get into that Inquistion was a *good thing* mindset. I also think some Protestants take it too far when they give out numbers like 100 million victims of the Inquisition considering the population of Europe at that time. So I agree with balance but Im seeing an imbalance on the Catholic side as well as those who give out 100 million numbers.

I do not believe in violence against anyone. I have good friends and loved ones who are Catholic.

[the lumberjack]

Budge, I'm sure you've found that the Catholic Church has A LOT of old documents and writings...but somehow, other things are "lost".

like the fact that Peter is actually (or is he) buried in Rome, which was apparently forgotten for the better part of 1200 years...and now pointing out that SOME of the paperwork from the inquistion was "lost, misplaced, burned or buried somewhere in time and space"...

but hey, mistakes happen, right?

we're only human, right?

riiiiiiiight.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Budge, I'd like to respond to one of the statements of yours in your last post. If you think its nit-picking, I really do apologize, but I feel like the issue should be clarified for everyone's benefit.

[quote]PROTESTANTS WHO DID THIS WERE WRONG. THOSE IN SALEM AND MORE WERE IN DEEP EVIL But Catholics its constant excuses![/quote]

Again, perhaps its semantical, but I would like to point out a few things. First and foremost, I think that every single catholic here, myself included, can honestly look you in the eye and tell you that we ARE sorry for all those people who died, just as we are sorry for all those people who did the killing, for they were most undeniably in sin and, as such, we believe that their very souls are in danger if they didn't repent.

However, yet again, we are talking about people - all the way from the top down - who did terrible things, but not the Church. To speak of the Church to Catholics is to speak of the Mystical Body of Christ, existing from its institution, through present day, and on into the future until the end of time.

In fact, you had a wonderful example of this difference in one of your quotes. The Holy Father said:
[quote]"Yet the consideration of mitigating factors does not exonerate the Church from the obligation to express profound regret for the weaknesses of so many of her sons and daughters who sullied her face, preventing her from fully mirroring the image of her crucified Lord, the supreme witness of patient love and of humble meekness.[/quote]

The Pope himself has appologized for the actions of those people who did terrible things "in the name of Christ." Moreover, any good Catholic will follow his lead, and I hope that everyone here does. But to ask us to blame the Church - that is, the Mystical Body of Christ - doesn't make any sense. We don't blame God for our sins (unless of course we want to end up like Adam).

I don't see the shifting of guilt or the pointing of fingers that you're talking about. I see our Holy Father, sincerely sorry for the terrible actions of others, a sorrow magnified by the fact that those actions have driven some people to believe that the Church itself is evil. He apologized for the actions of others, and all catholics should follow suite. But he will not shift blame from individuals (who have merited such blame by their actions) to the Church Militant herself.

[Bruce S]

Protestant CHURCHES are right NOW, this year, still being burned in Mexico.

Evangelical or Pentecostal PROTESTANTS are under constant harrassment in many many places around the world, Peru, France, Russia, Ukraine, and other places where either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox church CAN still exercise power.

So, pretending that the PHYSICAL HARM that the Catholics DID, is a thing of the past, is just plain disengenous, or worse, flat out cover up.

[url="http://www.baptistfire.com/articles/other/mexico.shtml"]http://www.baptistfire.com/articles/other/mexico.shtml[/url]

This current Pope is on record, many many times, saying that "cults" [read Evangelical or Pentecostal Protestants] should be fought VIGOROUSLY, especially in Latin and South America. Some take these statements literally, especially in rural areas held firmly in the grasp of corrupt Catholic leadership, working hand in hand with even more corrupt landlords, and politicians.

[quote]ECUADOR

Evangelical Mission Torched by Mob

by Kenneth D. MacHarg in Quito


After an evangelical church under construction was burned down in the heavily Catholic town of El Quinche, church leaders have intensified their efforts to defuse tensions between religious groups.

"There are continual threats in the town," says missionary Kevin Mayfield, field director for the Saint Louis-based Berean Mission in Ecuador. "Many people are very agitated."

A large mob set fire to the Berean-related Evangelical Church of the Good Shepherd on March 2, causing an estimated $40,000 damage.

El Quinche is a Roman Catholic stronghold 25 miles northeast of the capital, Quito. A large basilica several blocks from the evangelical church is the site of a reported visit by the Virgin Mary and a popular destination for pilgrims seeking healing.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.ctlibrary.com/1411"]http://www.ctlibrary.com/1411[/url]

Catholics have not really changed, where they CAN, they are just as determined to stop Christianity and protect the Catholic Church and it's wealth, power, and leadership.

The only place they put on the 'nice face' is where they are UNABLE to exercise, raw, naked power.

Edited June 14, 2004 by Bruce S

[the lumberjack]

but your sources are nonCatholic biased sources...

therefore devoid of any knowledge or basis of truth.

but I'm guessing you knew that when you posted, right?

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 14 2004, 11:58 AM'] This current Pope is on record, many many times, saying that "cults" [read Evangelical or Pentecostal Protestants] should be fought VIGOROUSLY, especially in Latin and South America. Some take these statements literally, especially in rural areas held firmly in the grasp of corrupt Catholic leadership, working hand in hand with even more corrupt landlords, and politicians.

[url="http://www.ctlibrary.com/1411"]http://www.ctlibrary.com/1411[/url] [/quote]
The following quote came from your own link Bruce:

[quote]The burning led to an unprecedented statement by Ecuadorian Roman Catholic and Protestant church officials. "We lament and reject this violent act provoked by false religious motivations," leaders said. "It is not only against the commandment to love, but also against human rights and constitutional rights of freedom of worship recognized in the Ecuadorian constitution."[/quote]


Yep, sounds like more of that "corrupt" Catholic leadership....

And what, precisely does this have to do with the original topic? Back on track please...

[Bruce S]

[quote]Be A Catholic Or Face Jail


June 5, 2001

(AgapePress) - Local authorities in three small towns in different Mexican states are telling evangelical Christians to change their religion to traditional Catholicism or suffer severe consequences.

Evangelical Christians who do not renounce their faith are being threatened with jail time, expulsion, the removal of public services such as water and drainage, and even death.

In one case, two recent converts were jailed for 36 hours and asked to deny their new evangelical Christian faith.

Terry Madison is president of Open Doors, a ministry which tracks the persecution of Christians. He says this is not a new problem.

"This has been an ongoing challenge in Chiapas, where when people accept the Lord they choose not to participate in some of the local Catholic celebrations, many of which involve 'posh,' which is a locally fermented drink," Madison says. "They choose not to participate, which means they're not buying the candles and the costumes and the fireworks, and some of the other products that some of the local authorities profit by, so there's an economic loss."

Madison says things are particularly bad for evangelical Christians in the state of Chiapas. "A particular community had 230 evangelicals. We're talking about a large body of Christ," he says. "Another had forty Christian church members who were challenged to renounce their evangelical faith and return to Catholicism or they would face having their homes burned and their animals destroyed."

In another example of intolerance, The Alabama Baptist newspaper reports Catholic leaders in San Nicolas, Mexico, a town of some 4,000 people, are telling 36 evangelical families they must leave town within 90 days "or be kicked out." The paper says the families' water and sewer services have been cut off.

A San Nicolas spokesperson is quoted as saying, "What the town wants is for the evangelicals to stop spreading their religion to more people and to stop having their meeting."

Patrick Scully, a spokesman for the Catholic League, said he couldn't comment on the story because he was not aware of the details and also since the persecution is taking place outside the United States.[/quote]

Edited June 14, 2004 by Bruce S

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Again, I will politely ask you to get back on topic or start a new one if you so desire to continue this particular line of bashing.

Thank you.