History Of The Inquisition

[Bruce S]

[quote]Winchester: It's not hard hitting that gets you in trouble, it's baiting, and you know that. You're passing me up not for fear of getting locked out, but for fear of being beaten off your turf, which is one of hit and run accusation, not intelligent discourse.[/quote]

Do you really think that? Then you haven't engaged me before dear man.

IF this site will in advance, in writing, give the following, pre-conditions, I'm game.

ONE:

No deletes, or edits by anyone other than the respective posters themselves.

No lockdowns or bannings. No matter how the debate goes, I stay a Phatmass member in good standing, without administrative warnings or other sanctions.

Allow grapics, pictures, and linkouts to other sites.

Just you and me.

The Topic: THE INQUISTION, pro and con, and it's effects on Europeans, and it's role in SPLITTING Catholics and Protestants.

OR, and this really would be preferable, because I fear this really will not be comfortable to the management here, we can do it on another site, under the same terms and conditions.

[quote]2 Timothy 3:12-17

v12- Indeed all who delight in piety and are determined to live a devoted and godly life in Christ Jesus will meet with persecution- that is, will be made to suffer because of their religious stand.

{ does that include being burned alive by your own church? }

v13- But wicked men and imposters will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and leading astray others and being deceived and led astray themselves.

{ does that include having your tounge ripped out by the roots?}

v14- But as for you, continue to hold to the things that you have learned and of which you are convinced, knowing from whom you learned them,

{ does that include having the fire that burns you alive LIT with kindling from English Tyndale Bibles? }

v15- And how from your childhood you have had knowledge of and been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you and give you the understanding for salvation which comes through faith in Christ Jesus[that is, through the 'leaning of the entire human personality on God in Christ Jesus in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom and goodness]

{ how could you FROM CHILDHOOD have knowledge of scripture, when only 5% of the population could even read Latin, as adults? }

v16- Every Scripture is God-breathed- given by His inspiration- and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, and for training in righteousness[that is, in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose and action][/quote]

Edited June 13, 2004 by Bruce S

[Winchester]

Well, that was easy.

I don't stoop to edits or deletes of my own material.

I won't be reading links. You make an argument, you summarize evidence. Be concise.

I've already established the course by my questions. Answer them so I know which inuisition you're talking about. I don't need you to set the course.

I'd love to address your points in the box, but let's first get back to my questions. Your points are leading and presumptive, but good rhetorical attack.

I'm not here to convince you the various inquisitions were good. You've made up your mind they're not. What I want to do is bring out the reality of the inquisition rather than merely the sensational.

[Budge]

You know when I see Catholics "defend" the indefensible" It raises endless alarm bells for me. How could anyone in Christ defend murder that was sanctioned by the church? How could ANYONE defend this?

The Inquistions were NOTHING but PURE EVIL.

Id rather trust in Gods Word then a church capable of these evils. thats what it comes down to for me.

[Winchester]

What post did you read?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 13 2004, 08:03 PM'] You know when I see Catholics "defend" the indefensible" It raises endless alarm bells for me. How could anyone in Christ defend murder that was sanctioned by the church? How could ANYONE defend this?

The Inquistions were NOTHING but PURE EVIL.

Id rather trust in Gods Word then a church capable of these evils. thats what it comes down to for me. [/quote]
Even anti-Catholic writers and leaders disagree that historical events are a good reason to stay out of a Church or to disagree with an organization. Rob Zins states "Some Christians, in their zeal to show the offensiveness of Rome, like to dredge up all the dirt of Rome. I don't think this is the right approach. The proper focus is doctrine, not rumors or scandal.

If your sole basis to condemn the Catholic Church is because their are sinners in the Church, you stand on weak ground.

One cannot defend murder, but one however can bring into reality what happened in the past. Often Protestants claim that millions more were murdered than is accurate. Some estimates would literally wipe out the entire face of the European continent.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 13 2004, 08:42 AM'] Nah


I really look at Phatt as more of reinforcement forum where like minded people pat each other on the back telling each other how right they are. Sorry, it is a WELL run and WELL designed site, some of the most effective use of forum graphics and software around, I appreciate all that, and you are a wonderful source of information, but interFAITH dialogue is really not much dialogue and more "come here and sit quietly as we teach you how you can BECOME a Catholic"

[/quote]
I must admit that there is truth to this statement. I would only add to the last line "come here and sit quietly as we teach you how you can BECOME a Catholic according to what we (those who run the show here at phatmass) believe that means."

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jun 13 2004, 12:23 PM'] Please give me an example of you being banned or erased for a legitimate argument. [/quote]
Legitimate as defined by whom?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 13 2004, 01:03 PM'] But what bugs me about this whole thing is that even after these requests, your posts tend to be either blatantly antagonizing, or subtly biting and sarcastic. [/quote]
Also quite true.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 13 2004, 08:03 PM'] You know when I see Catholics "defend" the indefensible" It raises endless alarm bells for me. How could anyone in Christ defend murder that was sanctioned by the church? How could ANYONE defend this?

The Inquistions were NOTHING but PURE EVIL.

Id rather trust in Gods Word then a church capable of these evils. thats what it comes down to for me. [/quote]
Evil huh? I think that is what is being debated here. You need better arguments than this. Proof???

[Aloysius]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jun 13 2004, 09:57 PM'] Legitimate as defined by whom? [/quote]
as defined by those who seek to keep the peace, and those who OWN the phorum and pay good money to keep it up.

I've seen some unedited posts of bruce's before before they were edited, let me tell you: THEY DESERVED TO BE EDITED. Not because he disagreed with us, but because he broke the Phorum Guidelines! And the Phorum Guidelines don't say non-Catholics can't disagree with the Church, but they do say the peace must be kept and charity must be observed.

while The Phorum Guidelines don't say non-Catholics can't disagree with the Church, CATHOLICS are held to a higher standard at this Phorum; Catholics are not allowed to spread disrespect and disggreement for the Church unless they renounce their Catholic Faith, otherwise they're simply setting a bad example to all Catholics by being wolves in sheep's clothing.

everyone read these over again pls.
[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=boardrules"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=boardrules[/url]

it's really quite simple

PAX

[Justified Saint]

Budge, I really don't see how this discussion has turned into a defense of murder. Rather, this discussion is about upholding some standard of scholarship and being able to dismiss the outlandish myths advanced by some regarding the Inquisition.

That aside, Brother Adam's remarks are right one. Your suggestion would be quite problematic for just about any member of a church.

[Child of God]

I won't venture to speak for Budge, but I thought any debate about the Inquisitions weren't necessarily about the tortures and murders, but more about the policies of the church which led to them.

Also, I'll restate what I said before. The commonly accepted histories of any event are usually written by the conquering forces. No history is free of bias. Think about all those Russian children during the Cold War. Do you think they learned the same World history as we did? I don't think so.

The truth is sometimes elusive when discussing history. I think we will all be very surprised at what we learn in heaven.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 13 2004, 11:09 PM'] as defined by those who seek to keep the peace, and those who OWN the phorum and pay good money to keep it up.

I've seen some unedited posts of bruce's before before they were edited, let me tell you: THEY DESERVED TO BE EDITED. Not because he disagreed with us, but because he broke the Phorum Guidelines! And the Phorum Guidelines don't say non-Catholics can't disagree with the Church, but they do say the peace must be kept and charity must be observed.

while The Phorum Guidelines don't say non-Catholics can't disagree with the Church, CATHOLICS are held to a higher standard at this Phorum; Catholics are not allowed to spread disrespect and disggreement for the Church unless they renounce their Catholic Faith, otherwise they're simply setting a bad example to all Catholics by being wolves in sheep's clothing.

everyone read these over again pls.
[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=boardrules"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=boardrules[/url]

it's really quite simple

PAX [/quote]
I'm not condoning Bruce, nor the vast majority of his arguments. You did not address my question. I am not referring to those disrespectingthe Church etc. My question is: who decides what is legitimate discussion? According to whose opinion are we basing what doctrinal/philispohical questions may be discussed? This is why Bruce rightly pointed out that it seems that phatmass is "reinforcement forum where like minded people pat each other on the back telling each other how right they are." But in the end you are correct. This is dust's site and he can do whatever the hell he wants to do on it. Who am I to complain?? I don't pay the bills.

[Winchester]

Fabricating history is not easy, and it's pretty easy to detect such fabrications. Documentation goes a long way. Interpretation of events is where we see the greatest divergences.

[popestpiusx]

Dr. Warren Carrolls history series is a good source to start with if someone wants a good acount of the crusades (or anything else in Church histoery for that matter). Also Fr. John Laux wrote an excellent (and shorter than Carrols) history of the Church that is published by Tan Books. Both have good accounts of these events.