Lay People With Pectoral Cross? Annoying?

[Archaeology cat]

Why do I wear a mantilla? Because someone gave me one, because it's easy to keep in my bag, because it's easy to pop it on/off. I have also worn/do also wear snoods and scarves and hats. I do not wear any of those to be ostentatious or out of vanity, though I certainly received comments about my headscarf more than my mantilla (someone thought I looked too Muslim, apparently). In fact, I've stopped myself from buying really beautiful scarves because I worried I was being vain, whereas I've never really felt that with my mantillas. I prefer the look of the scarf, personally. Of course, I also tie my mantilla behind my head to keep my youngest from pulling it off, so it doesn't look great. 

Anyway, the mantilla came into use in the 16th century, to answer your earlier question. 

Oh, and I also have a larger cross that was given me by an uncle. I don't wear it often, because it's heavy. I probably wouldn't have bought it for myself, but I do like it on occasion. Point being - none of us know the hearts/motivations/intentions of others, so let's not assume. 

[Basilisa Marie]

​Yes but how long have they been tradition? the traditional covering sis the scarf or hat. the scriptural reason is to cover the hair, which a short lacy cap doesn't. Patristically, the reason was modesty, and the veil described was opaque and covered the hair and neck. A lacy veil, therefore, can only possibly be worn by a women who shuns a proper haircovering  (which actually covers the hair) or even a normal scarf or hat (which would cover ones head yet be normal) , in favour of something worn out of vanity and to draw attention.

​The thing is you're talking about something that was practiced differently in different regions by different cultures. It's my understanding that Spanish mantillas are traditionally made of lace. Women wear hats in other places in Europe, and in America. Other places wear scarves and shawls. Your ideas about "proper" headcoverings are exclusively influenced by culture and fashion, which change depending on time and place.

The scripture says that heads must be covered, and in another place that a woman's hair is her "glory" (again, a cultural ideal - women would cut or shave their hair when they were in mourning, and long hair was a sign of beauty, nearly all women would grow their hair long), so while it's understandable that the two would be conflated with each other, it's not entirely accurate. Augustine talks about head coverings, not hair coverings, too. But women don't wear short hair when they're in mourning anymore, and long hair isn't the same sign of beauty it once was (ever since short hair became fashionable). So it doesn't make sense to say that the thing that matters is the hair, not the head. The point isn't to cover up your hair, hide it, or whatever. The point is to show reverence to God and "spiritual things" (per Augustine, De Trinitate) when women cover their heads. The thing that is the symbol is a woman having something on her head that covers it in some way. It's not the act of hiding hair. 

So a hat or a wide headband works, and a lacy mantilla works, but not a ponytail, bun, or wearing a duck on your head.

 

[oratefratres]

​The thing is you're talking about something that was practiced differently in different regions by different cultures. It's my understanding that Spanish mantillas are traditionally made of lace. Women wear hats in other places in Europe, and in America. Other places wear scarves and shawls. Your ideas about "proper" headcoverings are exclusively influenced by culture and fashion, which change depending on time and place.

The scripture says that heads must be covered, and in another place that a woman's hair is her "glory" (again, a cultural ideal - women would cut or shave their hair when they were in mourning, and long hair was a sign of beauty, nearly all women would grow their hair long), so while it's understandable that the two would be conflated with each other, it's not entirely accurate. Augustine talks about head coverings, not hair coverings, too. But women don't wear short hair when they're in mourning anymore, and long hair isn't the same sign of beauty it once was (ever since short hair became fashionable). So it doesn't make sense to say that the thing that matters is the hair, not the head. The point isn't to cover up your hair, hide it, or whatever. The point is to show reverence to God and "spiritual things" (per Augustine, De Trinitate) when women cover their heads. The thing that is the symbol is a woman having something on her head that covers it in some way. It's not the act of hiding hair. 

So a hat or a wide headband works, and a lacy mantilla works, but not a ponytail, bun, or wearing a duck on your head.

 

​
Are you in spain? no? then it is not part of your tradition.

De Trinitate talks about the sacred and the trinity -  not the veiling or dress of women. Try reading Tertullian, On the Apparel of Women. It was always a matter of modesty not of 'women are sacred so must be veiled.

 

With the exception of the velatio virginum - the taking of the veil by nuns etc.

The 1917 Code of Canon Law also equates the tradition of women veiling with modesty - we know this because the canon which talks about women covering their head in church is the same one which requires men and women to sit separately in church

 

I see girls fighting over who wants to wear the pretty lacy mantilla cap and thiking of all kinds of traditional/pious sounding justifications, but not so much for men and women sitting separately in church. Both are tradition.

 

Seems to me that they do not understand the origins of the tradition of headcovering and shun the modesty which comes with that tradition.

[truthfinder]

I'm going to write this and flee, mostly to prevent myself getting banned by getting really angry.  Whenever I hear people (usually men) complain about lace not covering enough, or the veil not being long enough, or it's not completely covering the front of the hair, all I can think of is those who say the same thing about Muslim women, that their hijabs are not modest enough because they're worn in a certain way, a certain colour, of what have you.

I have a white (ugly) mantilla, a predominately black with colour scarf, as well as a white scarf with sequins.  My reasons for wearing any of them is entirely personal.  I just came back from chapel and didn't wear a veil at all (although it would have been my preference).  The only way to truly cover all my hair would be to cut it, but then I'd hear complaints about how immodest and masculine my hair would be.  

I often use my veils to act as blinkers for people who are distractions to me during Mass so that I can concentrate and not judge.  Obviously men do not veil, but if it's that much of a distraction to you, close your eyes, sit in the front row, or give your head a shake and evaluate your attempts at chastity and get thee to confession.  God knows I'll be in the confessional. 

[AccountDeleted]

It's not part of our tradition??

[totustuus20]

*I promised myself that I wouldn't get into a debate about the mantilla when I logged on to PM, but here goes nothing*

I don't understand the complaint about women wearing the mantilla in mass. We are perfectly okay with the Church having nice vestments for the priests, beautiful tabernacles and beautiful monstrances, chalices adorned with gold decorations and in some cases jewels, and beautiful high altars and arches. Why you may ask? If the Church should be spending money on the poor or on the sick, rather than "things"? Because we use these things to give glory to the Lord of the Universe who created us and who loves us infinitely even in our weaknesses. I veil in mass for many of the same reasons. I veil, first and foremost to show glory to God. Every time I put that piece of cloth on my head, it serves as a reminder to me that my entire life is about to change because of the love of Christ. My veil is lacy and at times, it looks slightly ostentatious, but it is worn for the glory of God. He deserves more than the absolute best that we can give him, so when I veil its not about me, but rather about Him and his wonder. It is not a fashion show, it isn't a neon sign that announces I am better than another person, it is a reminder to myself that I am entering a place where God is. It is a blinder that blocks out the rest of the world so that I can concentrate on the one Being who matters more to me than anyone else.

[oratefratres]

It's not part of our tradition??

​Oh its in black and white. that means it must be immemorial custom. Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith must have missed that one when they wrote that actually, it isn't. The Fathers of the Church should have referred to that when saying that transparent veils do not meet the requirement for head covering.

 

All I  am saying is that when someone wears something that is ostentatious, they are attention seeking, or at least, they know it will attract attention.

That is not a modest or humble quality. Whether you are wearing huge gold chains and everyone else isn't, or a flamboyant vain lacy fancy mantilla when in a Novus Ordo parish and a hat or normal scarf would suffice. Or wearing a huge pectoral cross.

 

The latter two are saying "look at me! look at my piety! look at how these things set me apart and ASK ME ABOUT MY HOLINESS!!!!"

The truly holy would realise that there is no need to wear giant crosses, fancy lacy mantillas, and in the spirit of humility and modesty, they would wear items which are not attention seeking. They would behave in a praiseworthy way without seeking to be praised. they would seek the approval of God not of man.

[beatitude]

Oratefratres, the Bible reminds us that "Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart". You are looking at the outward appearance, and Scripture explicitly warns us against that. I don't understand what your motive was in posting this thread, unless you were trolling or hoping to find others to gossip with about people who don't please you. And there seem to be a lot of people who displease you - do you realise that almost every single post you've made about church or the various parishes you've attended is to complain? "Self-important laypeople", "pushy attention-seeking ones", "holier-than-thou", "rad-trads" - I'm starting to wonder if you have a kind word about any Catholic you've ever met. If you want to spend your Lent stewing indignantly over the sight of women in mantillas or laypeople wearing a cross that you think is too large, then that's your own lookout, but I think you should stop trying to pull other people into it with post after post about how this is wrong, that's wrong, everything's wrong and nobody's right except you.

[oratefratres]

Oratefratres, the Bible reminds us that "Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart". You are looking at the outward appearance, and Scripture explicitly warns us against that. I don't understand what your motive was in posting this thread, unless you were trolling or hoping to find others to gossip with about people who don't please you. And there seem to be a lot of people who displease you - do you realise that almost every single post you've made about church or the various parishes you've attended is to complain? "Self-important laypeople", "pushy attention-seeking ones", "holier-than-thou", "rad-trads" - I'm starting to wonder if you have a kind word about any Catholic you've ever met. If you want to spend your Lent stewing indignantly over the sight of women in mantillas or laypeople wearing a cross that you think is too large, then that's your own lookout, but I think you should stop trying to pull other people into it with post after post about how this is wrong, that's wrong, everything's wrong and nobody's right except you.

​Actually this thread was because the EMHCs wearing suits and giant crosses looked similar to priests in clericals and were annoying because they were easily confusing.
 

If you believe, as you say, "Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart". then WHY are these people wearing such ostentatious religious garb?

 

 

[totustuus20]

Why did the woman break the alabaster jar to anoint Jesus with? Surely she was putting on "holier than thou" appearances when she anointed the head of Jesus with the expensive perfumes. Oh wait, it was to praise the Lord, not to impress others. He deserves the very best from us, and though I can only speak for myself, I can say that that is why I veil. That is why I dress well to mass. It is not to be ostentatious or to give off appearances of being better than I am, it is to praise and worship my savior. 

Side note: I think that Beatitude's posting of that verse was meant to mean that Man focuses on outward appearances, whereas God looks at the heart. Surely there would be a problem if a person who veiled was not a true worshiper of Christ, but that is a problem with the person and not with the veil. At times, we are all guilty of that (I know I am) but that is a condition of humanity, not a problem with a piece of lace. The problem outlined in this verse is when people focus so highly on the outward appearances of others that they fail to see the beauty which is Christ right in front of them.

Peace of Christ

[Ash Wednesday]

Well, well well. It's definitely Lent. What would we do without our annual Phatmass Mantilla Debate?
Have at it, I guess. Let me know if we actually get anywhere.

[AccountDeleted]

​Actually this thread was because the EMHCs wearing suits and giant crosses looked similar to priests in clericals and were annoying because they were easily confusing. 

If you believe, as you say, "Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart". then WHY are these people wearing such ostentatious religious garb?

 

 

​

Look, this is obviously very disturbing for you (not so much for anyone else it seems) so why not sit down and have a chat with your parish priest about the issue. He might ask the EMHCs to tone it down a bit with the over size Crosses (or he might not) but he also might be able to help you deal with the distraction it causes and the bad feelings. Whatever the reason for these people wearing what they do, it really shouldn't be such a problem for you, so maybe you just need a little help to deal with it? If you are concerned that you might confuse one of the EHMCs with a priest and you don't want to receive from them, then watch where the priest goes to stand during Communion and make sure you get in his line. That might ease your distress a little. I am still not sure why it matters so much to you, but since it does, you need to work on finding a solution that works for you since you might not be able to do anything about other people. Good luck.

[AccountDeleted]

Well, well well. It's definitely Lent. What would we do without our annual Phatmass Mantilla Debate?
Have at it, I guess. Let me know if we actually get anywhere.

​

There do seem to be some favorite topics that come out of the woodwork every Lent!

 

[AccountDeleted]

​Oh its in black and white. that means it must be immemorial custom. Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith must have missed that one when they wrote that actually, it isn't. The Fathers of the Church should have referred to that when saying that transparent veils do not meet the requirement for head covering.

 

All I  am saying is that when someone wears something that is ostentatious, they are attention seeking, or at least, they know it will attract attention.

That is not a modest or humble quality. Whether you are wearing huge gold chains and everyone else isn't, or a flamboyant vain lacy fancy mantilla when in a Novus Ordo parish and a hat or normal scarf would suffice. Or wearing a huge pectoral cross.

 

The latter two are saying "look at me! look at my piety! look at how these things set me apart and ASK ME ABOUT MY HOLINESS!!!!"

The truly holy would realise that there is no need to wear giant crosses, fancy lacy mantillas, and in the spirit of humility and modesty, they would wear items which are not attention seeking. They would behave in a praiseworthy way without seeking to be praised. they would seek the approval of God not of man.

​Somehow I missed this response so thought I might go back and address it. Are you really insisting that Jacki Kennedy was simply trying to get attention or make people think she was holier than thou by wearing a mantilla? It was custom in the US pre Vatican II for women to wear mantillas or other head coverings like hats in Church. Jackie often wore a hat but sometimes wore a mantilla. Does that mean that the time she wore a mantilla she was doing it just to show off how holy she was?

I still think you are hung up on what people wear to the exclusion of all common sense. Do some people try to draw attention to themselves so others will think they are holy? Yes, I am sure there are some who do, but honestly, why does it bother you so much? Are you worried that people won't realize how holy you are because you don't draw attention to yourself? I just don't get this complete over reaction. I don't cover my head but I certainly think a mantilla is a lot less distracting than a big hat that is hard to see around. 

True humility is not in the appearance, either flamboyant or quiet - it is in the soul. Your reaction of persistent judgment of the motivations of others is hardly an indication of humility in itself, is it? Give it a rest, for your own peace of mind!

[Nihil Obstat]

1 I may speak with every tongue that men and angels use; yet, if I lack charity, I am no better than echoing bronze, or the clash of cymbals.

2 I may have powers of prophecy, no secret hidden from me, no knowledge too deep for me; I may have utter faith, so that I can move mountains; yet if I lack charity, I count for nothing. 

3 I may give away all that I have, to feed the poor; I may give myself up to be burnt at the stake; if I lack charity, it goes for nothing. 

4 Charity is patient, is kind; charity feels no envy; charity is never perverse or proud, 

5 never insolent; does not claim its rights, cannot be provoked, does not brood over an injury; 

6 takes no pleasure in wrong-doing, but rejoices at the victory of truth; 

7 sustains, believes, hopes, endures, to the last. 

8 The time will come when we shall outgrow prophecy, when speaking with tongues will come to an end, when knowledge will be swept away; we shall never have finished with charity. 

9 Our knowledge, our prophecy, are only glimpses of the truth; 

10 and these glimpses will be swept away when the time of fulfilment comes. 

11 (Just so, when I was a child, I talked like a child, I had the intelligence, the thoughts of a child; since I became a man, I have outgrown childish ways.) 

12 At present, we are looking at a confused reflection in a mirror; then, we shall see face to face; now, I have only glimpses of knowledge; then, I shall recognize God as he has recognized me. 

13 Meanwhile, faith, hope and charity persist, all three; but the greatest of them all is charity.