Debate Over The Right To Compel People To Make Gay/antigay Cakes

[PhuturePriest]

He actually countered your incorrect assumption that indifference to sin is charitable and a path which brings people closer to Christ. Maybe you can explain how offering to make a cake that would support and celebrate a union in which two individuals will lose their souls for eternity, separating them from Christ for eternity, is working toward bringing them closer to Christ?

 

[Norseman82]

You proved my point, on two levels, the first that you cant keep up with me,

 

the second that exactly no one is even considering bringing people closer to Christ in this situation which should be the real focus, but instead people choose to a pointless stance instead.

 

Except that there is a Catholic moral principle that it is not permissible to do evil in order to bring about a good.  For example, would you go to a strip club to hang out with your friends so they thought you were cool so that it would be easier later on to "bring them to Christ"?

 

 ipsofacto

 

Uh oh, THAT can of worms again....

[ChristianGirlForever]

You're really sexy when you're so blatantly ignorant of Catholic moral ethics.

Umm, what?

[Maggyie]

Here is the thing. Does a Catholic bakery (is there such a thing as a Catholic bakery) also refuse to bake cakes for a wedding where they know full well it's a fourth marriage for a notorious divorcee?

Or one of the parties is Catholic and it's going to be an unapproved pagan ceremony?

I mean is it the business's responsibility to make sure their cake is not used for purposes against the bakery's religion? I'm pretty sure the wedding will take place with or without the cake. Such is life when your product consists of flour and eggs.

In my line of work it's not unusual for situations of dubious morality but crystal clear legality to arise. For instance a man may call and make over his life insurance to his mistress, deleting his wife and children. He has a perfect legal right to do so. And since we don't have a "sinless Christians only" business strategy, nor do we sell only to Christians, we certainly comply.

I think it's different when providing a venue for the wedding - since your venue's name will go out on the invitations, and a space you own with your name on it is much more personally tied to you than a relatively anonymous cake or a dress or jewelry or flowers. I don't mind when the Knights of Columbus say they won't allow X Y or Z on their property for instance.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Maggie

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

Here is the thing. Does a Catholic bakery (is there such a thing as a Catholic bakery) also refuse to bake cakes for a wedding where they know full well it's a fourth marriage for a notorious divorcee?

Or one of the parties is Catholic and it's going to be an unapproved pagan ceremony?

I mean is it the business's responsibility to make sure their cake is not used for purposes against the bakery's religion? I'm pretty sure the wedding will take place with or without the cake. Such is life when your product consists of flour and eggs.

A Catholic bakery should uphold the faith in every circumstance and refuse services if they know it is going toward supporting that which is against the moral teachings of the Catholic Church. Especially if the bakery is publicly known as a Catholic Bakery.

In my line of work it's not unusual for situations of dubious morality but crystal clear legality to arise. For instance a man may call and make over his life insurance to his mistress, deleting his wife and children. He has a perfect legal right to do so. And since we don't have a "sinless Christians only" business strategy, nor do we sell only to Christians, we certainly comply.

I assume you're working for large insurance cooperation which bares no religious affiliation?

I think it's different when providing a venue for the wedding - since your venue's name will go out on the invitations, and a space you own with your name on it is much more personally tied to you than a relatively anonymous cake or a dress or jewelry or flowers. I don't mind when the Knights of Columbus say they won't allow X Y or Z on their property for instance.

You make the mistake of thinking because something is bigger it therefore holds more significance. A beautiful wedding dress, jewels, and flowers, and yes even a cake will catch the attention of a lot of guests. This is why shops go out of their way to make them the best they can for these events, because they know others who like them at the event will want to know where the wedding planners obtained these goods.

Example:
Guest: Where did you get those beautiful flowers?
Host: Oh I got them from St.Therese's The Little Flower on 4th ave. Edited February 1, 2015 by Oremus Pro Invicem

[superblue]

Actually what I said is correct, it is the common sense that is lacking for it to be understood, but I get it , 3 against 1 so I have to start a simpler way of understanding what I was getting at, instead of stooping down to play games with the three of ya.

 

But alas I am out of time, so the three of you pat each other on back for a job well done, and i'll be back another day.

[superblue]

Actually what I said is correct, it is the common sense that is lacking for it to be understood, but I get it , 3 against 1 so I have to start a simpler way of understanding what I was getting at, instead of stooping down to play games with the three of ya.

 

But alas I am out of time, so the three of you pat each other on back for a job well done, and i'll be back another day.

[Maggyie]

That's what I mean. Where are these flower shops named after saints and martyrs. They don't exist.

I mean again, how far do you want to take this? Given, again, that there is no market for Catholic-themed bakeries and dress stores. Does the ordinary small business person need to create a morality cause in the contract? If you run a paperie for example, do you need to interrogate your customers before they leave to make sure the invites will only be used for straight ceremonies?

Should you let Protestants or atheists shop there either, given their sometimes sketchy moral choices? After all if they find out the atheist bride bought her flowers at your shop they will think you approve of their atheist wedding ceremony. Or if you provide the cake for the Mormon church's Easter party everyone will think wow consorting with heretics. Why doing the cake for the Mormons and not sticking with your own kind? Not so hot on the trinity now are you?

Do business owners need to keep a canon lawyer on retainer to help them determine whether they can morally sell their stuff to particular individuals? A letter from the parish needs to be presented maybe or proof of anullment.

Moreover should you be willing to sell lawn mowers to a gay person? Or roofing supplies? After all these items will be used to maintain the home where they will live as a gay married couple?

Or if you are a landlord maybe refuse to rent to them? "You may be a great tenant but we don't want your kind here" that wil go over well in the courts.

In reality the 2 questions a business owner has to ask are

1. Is the money counterfeit?
2. Are they asking me to write "Fudge the Catholic Church" in pink swirly frosting on the cake?

If the answer is no to both then a sale is a sale my friends.

[superblue]

That's what I mean. Where are these flower shops named after saints and martyrs. They don't exist.

I mean again, how far do you want to take this? Given, again, that there is no market for Catholic-themed bakeries and dress stores. Does the ordinary small business person need to create a morality cause in the contract? If you run a paperie for example, do you need to interrogate your customers before they leave to make sure the invites will only be used for straight ceremonies?

Should you let Protestants or atheists shop there either, given their sometimes sketchy moral choices? After all if they find out the atheist bride bought her flowers at your shop they will think you approve of their atheist wedding ceremony. Or if you provide the cake for the Mormon church's Easter party everyone will think wow consorting with heretics. Why doing the cake for the Mormons and not sticking with your own kind? Not so hot on the trinity now are you?

Do business owners need to keep a canon lawyer on retainer to help them determine whether they can morally sell their stuff to particular individuals? A letter from the parish needs to be presented maybe or proof of anullment.

Moreover should you be willing to sell lawn mowers to a gay person? Or roofing supplies? After all these items will be used to maintain the home where they will live as a gay married couple?

Or if you are a landlord maybe refuse to rent to them? "You may be a great tenant but we don't want your kind here" that wil go over well in the courts.

In reality the 2 questions a business owner has to ask are

1. Is the money counterfeit?
2. Are they asking me to write "Fudge the Catholic Church" in pink swirly frosting on the cake?

If the answer is no to both then a sale is a sale my friends.

 

 

Evidently it is more important to ignorant self righteous and probably homophobic " catholics " to hide behind false things such as " defending their religious beliefs " than to live the faith and bring people to Christ.  For some it is much more easier to walk around as judge, jury, and executioner , with a set of rules in tow that they feel gives them the right that they are merely " defending the faith " .

 

All that has taken place is foolishness it has served no greater good, and to think that one needs to defend the church or defend ones religious beliefs is nonsense,

 

the moronic analogies don't even hold water that supposed church know it alls are trying to use to wave proudly on how right they are.

 

but it is fun watching the circus show they put on,

 

so I guess if we are to deny human dignity to homosexuals on what they can and can not buy, I suppose someone needs to walk around and make sure catholics are not working in industries that make any type of violent weapons or ammunition, and surly must deny services to any politician who works against the values of the church in any way shape or form, and then we have to start screening catholics to make sure they are not involved in the democrat party, considering that is the party that supports abortions.  Wouldn't want to come off as hypocritical so mine as well be fair all across the board.  And then any catholic business should also deny services to homosexuals in general, why stop at cakes.

 

Because evidently this mindset is the best way not only to defend the faith but to educate horrible sinners on how wrong they are, and it will bring about their salvation so much quicker. An some how make the world a better place.

 

Why is it so righteous to shove an issue like this to the forefront , but it would be wrong, to push the same level of what ever this nonsense is on atheists , Mormons,  Jews, Muslims, Buddhists , when they walk in to the same store, why not deny them services as well, since their way of life does not believe in Christ, nor the validity of the Catholic Church, why not claim them just as morally destructive...

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

That's what I mean. Where are these flower shops named after saints and martyrs. They don't exist.

Whether these businesses exist at present time is moot argument. What we're discussing is "if" one were to exist then the shop owner should be allowed to refuse services.

I mean again, how far do you want to take this? Given, again, that there is no market for Catholic-themed bakeries and dress stores. Does the ordinary small business person need to create a morality cause in the contract? If you run a paperie for example, do you need to interrogate your customers before they leave to make sure the invites will only be used for straight ceremonies?

No interrogation is needed, since being ignorant of the customers intentions would not make you culpable for supporting sin. What we're discussing is should business be allowed to refuse service? Whether or not a small business needs to make a moralty clause in the contract is not what we're discussing. What we're are discussing is should small businesses have the right to run their companies as they see fit so if they wanted to add such a clause, then they could? I say yes, companies should have that right.

Should you let Protestants or atheists shop there either, given their sometimes sketchy moral choices? After all if they find out the atheist bride bought her flowers at your shop they will think you approve of their atheist wedding ceremony. Or if you provide the cake for the Mormon church's Easter party everyone will think wow consorting with heretics. Why doing the cake for the Mormons and not sticking with your own kind? Not so hot on the trinity now are you?

Sounds like you're reaching way out into left field for these examples. The Church recognizes natural marriages as being valid as well as Easter, so neither of these examples are on the same level as a union in which the Church views as being unnatural.

Do business owners need to keep a canon lawyer on retainer to help them determine whether they can morally sell their stuff to particular individuals? A letter from the parish needs to be presented maybe or proof of anullment.

Moreover should you be willing to sell lawn mowers to a gay person? Or roofing supplies? After all these items will be used to maintain the home where they will live as a gay married couple?

Or if you are a landlord maybe refuse to rent to them? "You may be a great tenant but we don't want your kind here" that wil go over well in the courts.

I think you're missing the point of this discussion. What you or I believe is good business practice is irrelevant to this discussion. The point I'm making is business should be able to run their establishments as they see fit, which includes making decision which could possibly tank their own company.

In reality the 2 questions a business owner has to ask are

1. Is the money counterfeit?
2. Are they asking me to write "Fudge the Catholic Church" in pink swirly frosting on the cake?

If the answer is no to both then a sale is a sale my friends.

Glad to know how you would run your company, Maggie. Edited February 2, 2015 by Oremus Pro Invicem

[superblue]

Whether these businesses exist at present time is moot argument. What we're discussing is "if" one were to exist then the shop owner should be allowed to refuse services.

No interrogation is needed, since being ignorant of the customers intentions would not make you culpable for supporting sin. What we're discussing is should business be allowed to refuse service? Whether or not a small business needs to make a moralty clause in the contract is not what we're discussing. What we're are discussing is should small businesses have the right to run their companies as they see fit so if they wanted to add such a clause, then they could? I say yes, companies should have that right.

Sounds like you're reaching way out into left field for these examples. The Church recognizes natural marriages as being valid as well as Easter, so neither of these examples are on the same level as a union in which the Church views as being unnatural.

I think you're missing the point of this discussion. What you or I believe is good business practice is irrelevant to this discussion. The point I'm making is business should be able to run their establishments as they see fit, which includes making decision which could possibly tank their own company.

Glad to know how you would run your company, Maggie.

You an Fp should get together more often,

 

Maggie didn't miss a beat,  she was merely pointing out the flawed thinking that is being presented by the drumbeaters,

 

Maggie seems like she would be more focused on treating people with dignity and good customer service than making a federal case out of selling a product to the general public.

 

and by your theory of a business being able to run their establishment as they see fit, then with that logic, one should be allowed, following your own logic, to not only not allow underage people from entering, but also deny anyone entrance or permission to buy anything based upon, their gender, religion, and or race.

 

because after all, it is their establishment.

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

and by your theory of a business being able to run their establishment as they see fit, then with that logic, one should be allowed, following your own logic, to not only not allow underage people from entering, but also deny anyone entrance or permission to buy anything based upon, their gender, religion, and or race.

because after all, it is their establishment.

No argument here. As I said businesses should be allowed to make decisions, even ones which could tank their own company.

[Winchester]

You an Fp should get together more often,

 

Maggie didn't miss a beat,  she was merely pointing out the flawed thinking that is being presented by the drumbeaters,

 

Maggie seems like she would be more focused on treating people with dignity and good customer service than making a federal case out of selling a product to the general public.

 

and by your theory of a business being able to run their establishment as they see fit, then with that logic, one should be allowed, following your own logic, to not only not allow underage people from entering, but also deny anyone entrance or permission to buy anything based upon, their gender, religion, and or race.

 

because after all, it is their establishment.

This is the part where you expect people to freak out and demand initiation of violence. You savages and your violence...

[PhuturePriest]

This is the part where you expect people to freak out and demand initiation of violence. You savages and your violence...

 

[Winchester]

Did you regard that as initiation of violence?