Debate Over The Right To Compel People To Make Gay/antigay Cakes

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

I never replied to this comment. I got distracted by all the new posts!
I agree, the comparison is rough. I dont believe that a homosexual relationships is anything similar to an adulterous one. The only common thread would be that the church views both as morally wrong while on the other hand, the rest of society does not. An adulterous relationship is one of broken trust vs a monogamous homosexual relationship (while also susceptible to the same problems of heterosexual relationships) is simply two people loving each other.

But I think this is a hard point to make when someone views homosexuality through a Catholic teaching lens. Usually those logistical things are lost and the point being made is that it is morally wrong so its ok to compare it to other morally wrong behaviors...which I disagree with vehemently.

I agree you cannot and should not compare them because they're completely different and any comparison will usually end in failure. I think the fact that they're not the same is something that should be focused on and that the approach should be different. I personally think that those who indentify as homosexuals and who are living a life according to the gospel of Christ and His Catholic Church should advise heterosexual Catholics on how to approach this subject. Tell them what is helpful and what isn't or hasn't been helpful. Maybe tell heterosexuals how they as homosexuals came to understand their own unique struggle through the Catechism and how they view that in the context of Christ's life? Had did their cross bring them closer to Christ? For example do they find a connection with Christ because He too had a nature which no one understood? Etc.etc.

The contradiction of a person in a homosexual relationship teaching religion in a Catholic school is something I can understand...but maybe not so much if the individual is teaching a different subject. I feel like if it is not this individuals responsibility to comment on religious aspects of the faith (since they are a math, lit, science, or whatever teacher) then it would be wrongful to terminate them on the basis of their active homosexual lifestyle.

I think what we need to understand is a Catholic private school is not just Catholic when teaching about religion, but should be Catholic when teaching about anything. A Catholic child should be able to at any time look for guidance from a practicing catholic adult within their private school. Lots of people, including Catholics, think Catholicism is part of them when it's really not a part, it is who they are. We are not teachers who are catholic, we are Catholic teachers. We are not business men who are Catholic, we are Catholic business men. At baptism Catholisicm became our race and our identity.

And then back to the questions I had about baking cake for a homosexual wedding or attending said wedding or anything to do with participating in the lives of an active homosexual couple who are either your friends or family....the CCC doesnt really say anything about that. It doesnt say that we are participating in evil or that you are necessarily supporting evil. I think that is where a lot of interpretation and opinion insertion can get messy. It is very clear that Catholics need to love and respect the homosexual community, and I believe that would also involve participating in their lives just like a normal human being would to any of their other friends.

The Cathechism doesn't address everything because it cannot list every little circumstance for every situation. If someone has doubts about the right direction to take then they should reach out to their pastor. Sadly though, nowadays, that can be just as dangerous as reaching out to someone who is anti-catholic and the Church needs more orthodox priests to help in this regard. I think others have to know when they're being loving and supportive and when they're being indifferent or enabling. As for the gay cake issue I think a video which shows how one sided this is, is the video(s) of a man asking gay bakeries to make pro-traditional marriage cakes. He is clearly refused business which shows that equality is really just a buzz word being used since at the heart of it, it's a matter of upholding beliefs. Christian bakeries should be allowed to deny service if homosexual bakeries and pro-gay marriage bakeries are able to do so without any fines or penalties.

While I believe some of the calls are obnoxious, I feel they show the hypocrisy of this "equality" slogan that is thrown around. The LGBTQ community, IMO, is not tolerant of others beliefs but rather only of those that are in line with their own agenda. I don't fault them for that sine you cannot be pro something without being anti something else. Yet stop calling it equality since that's clearly not the case.

http://youtu.be/AJaroR_qTNs
http://youtu.be/ptgAKywiHG0

[CrossCuT]

As for the gay cake issue I think a video which shows how one sided this is, is the video(s) of a man asking gay bakeries to make pro-traditional marriage cakes. He is clearly refused business which shows that equality is really just a buzz word being used since at the heart of it, it's a matter of upholding beliefs. Christian bakeries should be allowed to deny service if homosexual bakeries and pro-gay marriage bakeries are able to do so without any fines or penalties.

While I believe some of the calls are obnoxious, I feel they show the hypocrisy of this "equality" slogan that is thrown around. The LGBTQ community, IMO, is not tolerant of others beliefs but rather only of those that are in line with their own agenda. I don't fault them for that sine you cannot be pro something without being anti something else. Yet stop calling it equality since that's clearly not the case.

http://youtu.be/AJaroR_qTNs
http://youtu.be/ptgAKywiHG0

See for me, this is just getting so preposterous when we start defining bakeries or other establishments as pro and anti gay marriage areas. This is getting dangerously close to some full blown echo-racist bigotry. I mean, if we are going to start designating which stores service which orientation, should we put up signs? Should we say "Gays Not allowed"? I mean, its getting pretty insane. 

 

But as for the specific example you gave me (and I did not watch the video because I am at work so I am going off your explanation) this is not an equivalent instance. The homosexuals who requested a cake for their wedding were just asking for a cake. They didnt want it to say "Gay power!!" or "Down with traditional marriage!". They just wanted a wedding cake. 

Now enter angry heterosexual who wants a "pro traditional marriage" cake. What the floop even is that? You mean just a normal cake? If you wanted an equivalent example, the person should simply be order some ulgy froo-froo cake for their wedding with flowers and ish all over it (Which might I add happens all the time). So really, this has nothing to do with inequality....its just some heterosexual being a jerk because he feels oppressed.

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

See for me, this is just getting so preposterous when we start defining bakeries or other establishments as pro and anti gay marriage areas. This is getting dangerously close to some full blown echo-racist bigotry. I mean, if we are going to start designating which stores service which orientation, should we put up signs? Should we say "Gays Not allowed"? I mean, its getting pretty insane.

But as for the specific example you gave me (and I did not watch the video because I am at work so I am going off your explanation) this is not an equivalent instance. The homosexuals who requested a cake for their wedding were just asking for a cake. They didnt want it to say "Gay power!!" or "Down with traditional marriage!". They just wanted a wedding cake.

Now enter angry heterosexual who wants a "pro traditional marriage" cake. What the floop even is that? You mean just a normal cake? If you wanted an equivalent example, the person should simply be order some ulgy froo-froo cake for their wedding with flowers and ish all over it (Which might I add happens all the time). So really, this has nothing to do with inequality....its just some heterosexual being a jerk because he feels oppressed.

You're argument does not take away from the fact that the man is denied service because of his beliefs (which is the point of the video). You can argue that it's not the same, but in the end it is. In both cases customers were denied service because for their beliefs and only one has been fined and that is the Christain bakeries or those who are pro-traditional marriages. Obviously the man had to use a message which would expose the inequality in service from these bakeries. If they're opposed to the message he wants on the cake they would have been opposed to the reason for why he wanted the cake; for his pro-traditional marriage group. Edited January 30, 2015 by Oremus Pro Invicem

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

No see the difference is that one person was trying to make a political point by being a jerk, and the other is a legit need to purchase a wedding cake for a wedding event.

Not the same in my eyes. Just christian supremacy feeling threatened.

Again your pointing out insignificant things as for why you believe it's not the same. The reality, however, is while the reasons for why they want the goods and services are not the same the fact remains the level of service in a culture that promotes "equality" should be the same regardless of the reason and that is the point. You can choose to ignore this and close you're eyes with your biased opinion or you can acknowledge the truth presented in the video and that is one type of bakery is allowed to refuse service because they do not want to support certain beliefs and opinions while another type of bakery has been fined for doing the exact same thing. That is hypocrisy. Either you allow business, especially small businesses, the right to refuse service or you make service mandatory regardless of your own personal beliefs and opinions. Edited January 30, 2015 by Oremus Pro Invicem

[CrossCuT]

Again your pointing out insignificant things as for why you believe it's not the same. The reality, however, is while the reasons for why they want the goods and services are not the same the fact remains the level of service in a culture that promotes "equality" should be the same regardless of the reason and that is the point. You can choose to ignore this and close you're eyes with your biased opinion or you can acknowledge the truth presented in the video and that is one type of bakery is allowed to refuse service because they do not want to support certain beliefs and opinions while another type of bakery has been fined for doing the exact same thing. That is hypocrisy. Either you allow business, especially small businesses, the right to refuse service or you make service mandatory regardless of your own personal beliefs and opinions.

 

The reasons for getting it are very important! And if a you are all about equality then no one should refuse a homosexual couple a cake!

[PhuturePriest]

The reasons for getting it are very important! And if a you are all about equality then no one should refuse a homosexual couple a cake!

 

His point is that the gay movement claims it wants equality, when really all it wants is for people to agree with them and their agenda. They are incredibly hypocritical when someone does or wants something that they disagree with, as can be seen in the video.

[CrossCuT]

His point is that the gay movement claims it wants equality, when really all it wants is for people to agree with them and their agenda. They are incredibly hypocritical when someone does or wants something that they disagree with, as can be seen in the video.

 

No I dont think they gave two poots about whether you agreed with them. They just wanted a cake!

[PhuturePriest]

No I dont think they gave two poots about whether you agreed with them. They just wanted a cake!

 

And that guy just wanted a cake. And they wouldn't make it for him because they disagreed with it on moral grounds, just like a bakery that won't bake a cake for a gay wedding based on moral principals.

[CrossCuT]

And that guy just wanted a cake. And they wouldn't make it for him because they disagreed with it on moral grounds, just like a bakery that won't bake a cake for a gay wedding based on moral principals.

 

No other guy didnt just want cake. He wanted to make a sociopolitical point about his very narrow views.

 

We live in a patriarchal, heterosexual normative society that has it in its head that whenever someone different shows up and says "Hey, we are humans can we have the same rights?" they freak out and complain about being oppressed. 

 

I can do nothing but laugh and feel sorry for the people who respond to these situations with the mentality "But what about me?"

Cause you dont get it; you just dont get it.

Edited January 30, 2015 by CrossCuT

[Winchester]

It's much easier to just not force people to do stuff they don't want to do.

 

Peaceful:

"I want a gay/antigay cake."

"I don't want to make a gay/antigay cake."

"Okay."

 

 

Violent:

"I want a gay/antigay cake."

"I don't want to make a gay/antigay cake."

"Then I'm going to involve people in the government's judicial system, who will show up with pieces of paper claiming the right to compel you to show up in court and defend your right to decide to not engage in this exchange with me. If I win, you will then be forced to comply with the court's judgments or face their sanctions. If you disobey, their escalation of force will continue until you obey and give me what I wanted."

 

 

[PhuturePriest]

No other guy didnt just want cake. He wanted to make a sociopolitical point about his very narrow views.

 

We live in a patriarchal, heterosexual normative society that has it in its head that whenever someone different shows up and says "Hey, we are humans can we have the same rights?" they freak out and complain about being oppressed. 

 

I can do nothing but laugh and feel sorry for the people who respond to these situations with the mentality "But what about me?"

Cause you dont get it; you just dont get it.

 

What's more patriarchal than two dudes getting married? They're basically saying "Eff you, women, we don't even need you for objectification reasons anymore!"

 

It doesn't matter what his reasons were. As a business, according to your own ideology, it doesn't matter what the purpose of the cake is -- they were told to make it, and they should have. But they didn't because they didn't agree with the message on the cake.

[Not The Philosopher]

All you guys have done is make me want cake now.

[ChristianGirlForever]

I had a problem with the language used by the woman who described herself as a "married lesbian woman."  She was quite rude and used obscene, offensive language.  I understand that she was angry, but that was uncalled for.  It certainly didn't do her, or her cause any credit.  

 

When a person asks a known Christian bakery to bake them a cake for his/her gay "wedding," they are trying to make a political statement.  When the owners refuse, the couple will sue them.  Then traditional Christians are castigated for standing up for their beliefs.  This isn't right, and it certainly isn't innocent.  They aren't just asking for cake for their wedding.  It is much more than that.

 

 

 

 

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

The reasons for getting it are very important! And if a you are all about equality then no one should refuse a homosexual couple a cake!

Why are the reasons important when all beliefs are to be treated and viewed as equal? Furthermore I am about equality; I believe businesses should be able to refuse service. I do not believe one business should be forced to provide service when another one gets to refuse service.

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

No other guy didnt just want cake. He wanted to make a sociopolitical point about his very narrow views.

He wanted a cake that states his belief. He didn't know they would refuse him service. He may of had an idea that he would be refused service based on his request, like how a homosexual couple would enter a Christian bakery knowing they will most likely be denied service based on their request. Yet in your eyes this guy is an a-hole while the gay couple are victims. Interesting view.

We live in a patriarchal, heterosexual normative society that has it in its head that whenever someone different shows up and says "Hey, we are humans can we have the same rights?" they freak out and complain about being oppressed.

Oh get over yourself. The guy clearly showed he was being denied service because of his beliefs. Yet you believe he shouldn't complain because he represents a majority and not the minority? What kinda of logic is that? Are you saying if he was the minority in society you would be appalled that he was denied service? Something tells me you wouldn't want him to be given service regardless.

I can do nothing but laugh and feel sorry for the people who respond to these situations with the mentality "But what about me?"
Cause you dont get it; you just dont get it.

This conversation is about offering goods and services and whether or not businesses should be allowed to refuse them. I say they should be allowed to refuse service, however, if society wants to force businesses to provide services regardless of ones beliefs then all business should have to do this. You say businesses should be forced but then you make exceptions for different circumstances. Yet your exceptions aren't even valid since the guy went to a bakery to get personalized baked goods. This a service bakeries provide, but maybe you need a refresher on this? In case you do here it is: bakeries provide cakes for weddings, graduations, birthdays, or any event one believes is cake worthy. In fact I could request a cake because my dog crapped on the hardwood floor and not the carpet and it would be a valid reason to get a cake. The reason for why I'm getting the cake should not matter if businesses are to treat all people equal. I mean it's just a cake right? At least that is the type of defense I hear from people such as yourself when you advocate Christians provide their services to gay couples looking to get a wedding cake.