CatherineM Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Alcohol is the drug that seems to take the most lives. It took my close friend. Not talking to you but people who over and over exclude alcohol from being a drug are out of their mind. Don't know if they're being purposely ignorant or what. Absolutely agree. I have been lucky in life to not lose anyone to alcohol, although there were some close calls. Had a brother who broke his neck riding with a drunk driver. He endured many months in a halo brace, but wasn't killed or permanently paralyzed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) Peace be with you CrossCut, I'm not sure what you mean about there being "no proof." There is proof for a significantly increased risk for psychosis in marijuana users. The Lancet is a reputable journal, there are other studies that have found similar results. Heh, you are not understanding me. These studies are finding correlations which are not the same thing as "proof" or direct conclusions for a cause. Correlations can still be significant, but they must be understood in the right context. There are two variables being observed in these studies. One is always marijuana use and the other is instances of mental and/or personality disorders. These are observed in high instances to be correlated together but that does not actually mean marijuana causes one or that the disorder makes people smoke marijuana. That is something that needs to be looked into more and have an experiment designed around that aspect alone in order to understand the correlation better. Does that make sense? Edited January 26, 2015 by CrossCuT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Peace be with you Crosscut, Heh, you are not understanding me. These studies are finding correlations which are not the same thing as "proof" or direct conclusions for a cause. Correlations can still be significant, but they must be understood in the right context. There are two variables being observed in these studies. One is always marijuana use and the other is instances of mental and/or personality disorders. These are observed in high instances to be correlated together but that does not actually mean marijuana causes one or that the disorder makes people smoke marijuana. That is something that needs to be looked into more and have an experiment designed around that aspect alone in order to understand the correlation better. Does that make sense? There is no need to be condescending, I understand the difference between causation and correlation. I cited a reference from the Lancet indicating there is proof of significantly increased risk of psychosis in marijuana users. As I'm sure you're aware, risk is a measure of correlation and not necessarily causation. It is difficult to establish a direct causation in virtually anything because it is nearly impossible to isolate all variables in a real world scenario. There is a study in the British Journal of Psychiatry which further shows an increased of psychosis in those who use high potency marijuana, this does lend credence to marijuana being a causal factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Peace be with you Crosscut, There is no need to be condescending, I understand the difference between causation and correlation. I cited a reference from the Lancet indicating there is proof of significantly increased risk of psychosis in marijuana users. As I'm sure you're aware, risk is a measure of correlation and not necessarily causation. It is difficult to establish a direct causation in virtually anything because it is nearly impossible to isolate all variables in a real world scenario. There is a study in the British Journal of Psychiatry which further shows an increased of psychosis in those who use high potency marijuana, this does lend credence to marijuana being a causal factor. I apologize if I sounded condescending...I probably did. The Lancet study was really more of just a collection and summary of data from other studies that fit their criteria. I am unable to look at each of the 35 studies they included in their report to see the finer details. There was an increased risk of any psychotic outcome in individuals who had ever used cannabis (pooled adjusted odds ratio=1·41, 95% CI 1·20–1·65). Findings were consistent with a dose-response effect, with greater risk in people who used cannabis most frequently (2·09, 1·54–2·84). Results of analyses restricted to studies of more clinically relevant psychotic disorders were similar. Depression, suicidal thoughts, and anxiety outcomes were examined separately. Findings for these outcomes were less consistent, and fewer attempts were made to address non-causal explanations, than for psychosis. A substantial confounding effect was present for both psychotic and affective outcomes. I stand by my statements from earlier in that this does not detail the relationship between smoking marijuana and possible preexisting illness. I am left to assume that the studies reported on two groups, non smoker and smokers and found that the smokers group had a higher instance for psychotic outcomes thus they said this group was higher risk. It still does not detail how this relationship comes to be. Whether marijuana smoking leads to psychosis or psychosis leads to marijuana smoking. That is my interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 Alcohol is the drug that seems to take the most lives. It took my close friend. Not talking to you but people who over and over exclude alcohol from being a drug are out of their mind. Don't know if they're being purposely ignorant or what. I'm sorry to hear about your friend. :( it is addictive and if someone struggles with temperance it can become dangerous. In my posts I was talking about very limited use of alcohol. My point was that very limited use of alcohol could come from an intention other than the one common for greater use or for marijuana, etc. (Intent to have some wine with dinner vs intent of getting drunk or high). Regarding using a bit of marijuana to calm down, my difficulty in that consists in some studied questioning effects of marijuana, and the fact that it leads to an altered state of consciousness - which things like herbal teas don't do. I also believe personally in turning to God with anxiety, and that sometimes other things end up being placed above Him - I don't mean skipping meds if you have a clinical illness, but just life anxiety and stress most people get. I've found surrendering to God's Will and prayer / Adoration is better for me because it helps the soul and lessens anxiety, and God can do this better than anyone, but we need to open up to Him. If I can't fall asleep though because my mind is stressed / overactive, I have some herbal tea and even things like Gregorian chant calm me down and have even reduced stress- affected physical pain before. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Regarding using a bit of marijuana to calm down, my difficulty in that consists in some studied questioning effects of marijuana, and the fact that it leads to an altered state of consciousness - If you really want to get into the ambiguous alter state of consciousness stuff, then sure. If you stop eating food for a long time and your blood sugar goes super low, you adopt an altered state of consciousness. Moral of the story: dont ever starve, its a mortal sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) It's not a sin to "alter your conscious" and get a really good buzz from alcohol. This is not a sin it's been debated here. So I fail to see the point of you saying "I'm just talking about having one sip" Ok good for you have one sip. But it's not a sin if someone else has 700 sips as long as they don't get drunk. Obtaining a buzz from alcohol and "altering your conscious" is not a sin and surely your conscious is altered from an alcohol buzz. So go ahead and abstain from everything if you like but don't tell me it's a sin for me to smoke a bowl. Because I will never agree with you.There is no logic behind your argument. God bless. Edited January 30, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 If it is a sin to merely get inebriated (a clear alteration of consciousness), then it seems to me that Christ provided an occasion of sin with His first miracle. We're admonished to avoid drunkenness, which is a habit, not an event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Even more reason then why smoking a bowl is not a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 http://www.instructables.com/id/10-Ways-to-Alter-Consciousness-Without-Drugs/ how many of these things are sinful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 I think the last few posts that replied to me are taking my argument out of context. Based on what I read there's a difference in drinking some alcohol and how people feel after marijuana. Its a qualitative difference. Its not like feeling a bit more social or awake (like from coffee). Its changing ones perception of the world - to me that seems to go further. If someone feels more social or something after some alcohol that is not something beyond normal human behavior or perception. Seeing hallucinations, is. And no I'm not AT ALL critiquing things like the Wedding at Cana - but neither was it over indulgent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Just to clarify, what I mean is that having a bit of alcohol doesn't seem to cause the type of sensory perception changes that marijuana does. With moderate use of alcohol, the effects are not so outside of what people can experience normally. With marijuana I read there can be things like hallucinations, people you know looking weird or like strangers, sounds getting looped etc. That sounds to me more like being drunk than the effect of only a bit of alcohol. That's what I meant by changes in consciousness. A bit of alcohol doesn't change the mind so much that it no longer works like an ordinary human mind - maybe the person is just less inhibited. But with marijuana it makes the person feel and see or hear things that don't normally happen to us as humans. Actual reality perception is altered which is more like being drunk. That's why with alcohol we should only have moderate amounts so it doesn't affect us too much and impairs our reason. Edited February 19, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Those things don't happen to me. I've never hallucinated. People I know looking like strangers? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 To develop a theory, you have to know what you're talking about. It's apparent that your information is dodgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Just to clarify, what I mean is that having a bit of alcohol doesn't seem to cause the type of sensory perception changes that marijuana does. With moderate use of alcohol, the effects are not so outside of what people can experience normally. With marijuana I read there can be things like hallucinations, people you know looking weird or like strangers, sounds getting looped etc. That sounds to me more like being drunk than the effect of only a bit of alcohol. That's what I meant by changes in consciousness. A bit of alcohol doesn't change the mind so much that it no longer works like an ordinary human mind - maybe the person is just less inhibited. But with marijuana it makes the person feel and see or hear things that don't normally happen to us as humans. Actual reality perception is altered which is more like being drunk. That's why with alcohol we should only have moderate amounts so it doesn't affect us too much and impairs our reason. Moderate alcohol use and moderate marijuana use are almost literally the same thing. Heavy alcohol use could lead to your death where as heavy marijuana use could lead to super cheetos cravings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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