A Theory On Drugs

[MarysLittleFlower]

I had just decided that debate table has too many intense discussions but after reading some of the marijuana thread comments I wanted to ask this question... Hopefully this doesn't become an awful debate. :D. But what do you all think of this argument...

1. God gave us reason and will
2. This is how we are different from animals
3. Though when we sleep etc we are deprived of the full use of reason and will, we should not deprive ourselves of it intentionally
4 This is related to human dignity as beings with a reason and will and the only valid times things like reason could be affected is when we are asleep, ill, very young, and other ways that are natural or in God's permissive will
5. We should then not deprive ourselves of use of reason and will in order to have fun etc and other trivial reasons

6. Coffee, moderate amounts of alcohol and cigarettes don't affect the use of reason and will. They affect brain chemistry but not in a way that interferes with moral decisions and our capabilities as humans. However they might be wrong to use for health reasons like smoking all the chemicals or having too much caffeine.
7. Other substances like drugs do affect the reasoning capability and the ability to make thought out choices.
8. Drugs like pot should be disapproved for this reason and not JUST because of how they might or might not affect the health.
9. Being 'high' is like being drunk and the Bible says not to get drunk on wine
10. Alcohol is different because a small or moderate amount of it doesn't have this effect and people can drink for reasons OTHER than getting drunk - like having wine with dinner. However people who take drugs always do so TO get high and there is no other reason. So the reason is intrinsically flawed. Its like drinking only to get drunk which Catholics shouldn't do. After all its not like people smoke marijuana for the smell and are ok having so little that there is no effect. So alcohol and drugs are different. Most drugs are also addictive and the person wants bigger quantities over time.

Note - I'm talking about marijuana to get high, not medicinal which is not part of this discussion

Also I'm mentioning marijuana because people often agree that cocaine etc should be outlawed for health concerns, but debate that point with marijuana.

Does this argument make sense using the Catholic position?

[Guest]

Does this argument make sense using the Catholic position?

No because marijuana can be used in moderation without interfering with free will or anything like that. A small amount makes the movie your watching more interesting. It's really not a big deal if a GROWN ADULT wants to smoke a bowl. Kids just say no to drugs including one of the most dangerous ones....Alcohol..

[Guest]

2 to 3 drinks interferes with my free will way more dangerously then a small bowl of marijuana does.That is a fact.

[MarysLittleFlower]

No because marijuana can be used in moderation without interfering with free will or anything like that. A small amount makes the movie your watching more interesting. It's really not a big deal if a GROWN ADULT wants to smoke a bowl. Kids just say no to drugs including one of the most dangerous ones....Alcohol..

Your disagreement sounds more science related than theology related because you didn't address the point of whether we need to preserve free will... But to respond - what is the point of altering brain chemistry for entertainment? That has always been something that I don't get. A person can drink wine with dinner because of the taste and it can have a mild effect on the person but not in the same way as marijuana I think. That's just something I've never understood.

[MarysLittleFlower]

2 to 3 drinks interferes with my free will way more dangerously then a small bowl of marijuana does.That is a fact.

I did say though that its ok to have alcohol if it doesn't affect you like that and makes you drunk. People have different alcohol tolerance levels as well. My point was that people can have different reasons to have alcohol, like in the past or in other cultures they just generally drink it. Its not to get some sort of sensory entertainment either like wanting hallucinations that often happen with various drugs.

[MarysLittleFlower]

After doing some research on the effects of marijuana it sounds like it can for sure affect reasoning. Also it affects the sensory system much more than caffeine or a responsible little bit of alcohol - because it actually alters the experience of reality. That seems related to my argument as well... Why alter experience of reality for fun? I also don't see how reason could be completely preserved.

I also found a whole bunch of health risks too including long term.

[Guest]

2 or 3 drinks does not make me drunk. It takes more then that. It's not a sin for a Catholic to drink and get a really good buzz. Just like it's not a sin for me to smoke a bowl and get a buzz. I'm just telling you which potential buzz is more of a threat. And are you serious when you exclude alcohol from being addictive and having a person crave larger and larger amounts? lol Please tell me you are joking.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Guest

[MarysLittleFlower]

2 or 3 drinks does not make me drunk. It takes more then that. It's not a sin for a Catholic to drink and get a really good buzz. Just like it's not a sin for me to smoke a bowl and get a buzz. I'm just telling you which potential buzz is more of a threat. And are you serious when you exclude alcohol from being addictive and having a person crave larger and larger amounts? lol Please tell me you are joking.

The little glass of wine I had with my family for Christmas didn't make me crave more. It depends on how and why you drink.

Isn't a very slight 'buzz' from alcohol different from what a person feels after marijuana? Is sensory perception altered more in the latter? With alcohol I mean before it starts affecting vision/perception. Doesn't marijuana affect those things? What type of 'buzz' do you mean? Edited January 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Guest]

Respect to you for not smoking marijuana. I'm not a marijuana spokesman or anything like that. I use such small amounts that most people would say what's the point. Like I said it's a once or twice a week thing. Some weeks none. It doesn't alter my perception or vision. I've never hallucinated. Paranoia does happen with me sometimes and I don't like that.The only time I get defensive about marijuana is when arguments like this get presented.Which try to put alcohol in this innocent pure light and marijuana as Satan's smoke. It's just not the case. I'm not saying problems or addictions can't arise with it but when compared to alcohol it's not even close to which is worse. Not even close lol Like I said I respect anyone who doesn't use and I would never try to get someone who abstains to not abstain. But I won't let a fellow Catholic tell me I'm going to hell for smoking a bowl. They can go ahead and judge away. It really makes no difference to me.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Guest

[MarysLittleFlower]

Ok so I did some research... It seems to have a different effect than alcohol but affects perception of reality progressively depending on amount.

I think to be honest what I'm having difficulty with here whenever someone supports marijuana is - why? Why do something to make you feel that way? Even if you're not at the point that it impairs reason - what is the point? I mean, people can have some alcohol as a social drink or for the taste etc, people can have coffee to wake up, but theres something about altering brain chemistry to provide mild hallucinations or more intense emotions that just feels odd to me. It can almost turn into a type of gluttony of seeking experiences or feelings. Food can taste good but we eat for nourishment and eating tons of food for pleasure is gluttony. Whenever something we do becomes centered on pleasure it loses its primary purpose and turns to gluttony, lust, etc. What is the purpose of drugs except constant pleasure seeking? At least wine is a drink and sometimes people have a cold beer to cool down in the summer. But with marijuana there's no other purpose! Yet everything else we do has a more primary purpose to it. Drugs seem like just hedonism to me.

I just finally figured out what bothers me about it all.

Also it doesn't help us in holiness... I can't imagine any of the Saints having drugs and acting in the way people do when they're high which looks undignified to me.

Edited January 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Guest]

Tell me how I act undignified when I smoke a bowl lol I'm really curious. And you're cracking me up with this whole alcohol isn't a drug thing. And some of the worst behavior I've seen from Catholics/Christians has been from the DANGEROUS DEADLY DRUG alcohol. You wouldn't even know in person if I smoked a bowl if I didn't tell you.It's not this big deal you're making it. Go ahead and judge away though.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Guest

[Ark]

What do the moral theologians say?

[MarysLittleFlower]

Respect to you for not smoking marijuana. I'm not a marijuana spokesman or anything like that. I use such small amounts that most people would say what's the point. Like I said it's a once or twice a week thing. Some weeks none. It doesn't alter my perception or vision. I've never hallucinated. Paranoia does happen with me sometimes and I don't like that.The only time I get defensive about marijuana is when arguments like this get presented.Which try to put alcohol in this innocent pure light and marijuana as Satan's smoke. It's just not the case. I'm not saying problems or addictions can't arise with it but when compared to alcohol it's not even close to which is worse. Not even close lol Like I said I respect anyone who doesn't use and I would never try to get someone who abstains to not abstain. But I won't let a fellow Catholic tell me I'm going to hell for smoking a bowl. They can go ahead and judge away. It really makes no difference to me.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm not talking about your soul which I don't know anything about but about marijuana itself, if that clarifies my position at all.

I don't think alcohol is harmless or less harmful when used wrongly. I think the reason I see it differently is because to me it has a purpose above pleasure seeking and I can't imagine what that could be for weed.

For example - I barely drink at all but when I did it was just a tiny bit of wine or a bit of champagne for new years. The effect of it was either nothing or so little I didn't really notice much of a change. To me it was just a drink that tasted a certain way that is more festive than my usual juice water and tea. It had sort of a social aspect to mark the occasion with a fancy drink. In some cultures its just a part of dinner. Basically it has a holiday and food aspect to it.

But with marijuana I can't think of any primary purpose it can have except seeking a feeling? Yet when we have other things ONLY for pleasure don't we say that is wrong? (Think of gluttony)

Its in this way that the pro marijuana argument seems inconsistent to me...

[Guest]

I don't get "pleasure" from marinuana. It's relaxing I guess that's sorta of a pleasure. When I used to drink I got pleasure from alchol. To much pleaure hence its been 16 months now since I've had a drink though.I'm thankful though because the pleasure from alcohol led to a lot of pain.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Guest

[MarysLittleFlower]

Tell me how I act undignified when I smoke a bowl lol I'm really curious. And you're cracking me up with this whole alcohol isn't a drug thing. And some of the worst behavior I've seen from Catholics/Christians has been from the DANGEROUS DEADLY DRUG alcohol. You wouldn't even know in person if I smoked a bowl if I didn't tell you.It's not this big deal you're making it. Go ahead and judge away though.

Once more this discission was never personal to begin with. Did I mention you personally? Not aware of it. I have heard descriptions of how people typically act when high and based it on that. Clearly it will be less if you have less. My question was something else though.

As for Christians acting undignified after alcohol - again I was supporting having so little alcohol that nothing like this happens. How is that different from having a bit of marijuana? To me it seemed like - a person can have the alcohol for another reason, but the reasons for marijuana seem to always involve seeking feelings as the PRIMARY aspect. My point is - other totally licit things like food do not have pleasure as the primary aspect. Turning food into pleasure seeking is a misuse of food. Why can't this logic be applied to marijuana?

I know you're maybe taking it personally a bit but I'm not talking about you but discussing a topic.