Catholics Don't Need To Breed Like Rabbits

[4588686]

I thought you were the pope. I am confused.

 

Good point. 

I am right. 

[Ash Wednesday]

 

What's happening, hot stuff?

[PhuturePriest]

 

What's happening, hot stuff?

 

Stop trying to lead others into sin by inspiring in them a passion to make 12 babies.

[CrossCuT]

Whelp, bashing big families as well as poo poo on contraception really leaves one whirling. Cant have it both ways. :idontknow:

 

Thats not to say that people who dont use contraception are incapable of planning families (quite the opposite) but I think we all need to admit that the church does not do a good job spreading the good news of their method. The info for NFP is really only allowed to a certain group of people at a certain time in their life. Not only that but you have to pay for it....pay for info you can get for free online. 

 

I feel like if the church was really concerned about womens well being, ability to plan families, and all that stuff, then they should make the NFP process and information as readily available as possible. 

 

And its really an unforgiving way to do it thats quite stressful on the woman if it doesnt work for her and/or she is simply bad at it. Sorry but obtaining from sex in your marriage is stupid and eff that. 

 

 

but I still love the Pope and I think his comments came off way more harsh than he intended. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by CrossCuT

[Not A Real Name]

 

What's happening, hot stuff?

 

Everyone knows Bugs Bunny is a cross-dressing abomination controlled by the illuminati. 

 

http://youtu.be/KFSYtWf4gqg

 

 

Same with Dustin Hoffman. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by Not A Real Name

[Nihil Obstat]

I loved Dustin Hoffman in Death of a Salesman.

[Lil Red]

From the transcript of the interview: 

So he isn't saying couples should only have 3, or that that is the absolute ideal. And his comment about the c/s was for a specific woman. The risks to mother and child increase with each c/s, and if she's in an area that doesn't have the best antenatal and intrapartum/postnatal care, intentionally getting pregnant after 7 c/s could be construed as irresponsible because of the real risk of death to mother and child. Some women may heal better from them than others, too, so it isn't a blanket statement or anything. 

 

What a great, reasoned response to this thread

[Oremoose]

I put myself in the women's shoes. In the initial incident I would probably have told him, "you know what, Holy Father, that particular horse has left the barn, but thanks for your insights into women's' healthcare." That's exactly what a woman who is pregnant wants to hear, is to be upbraided for her condition which she can't do anything about at this point. By a MAN.

I mean at least she'll have nine months to experience futile guilt and regret, along with exhaustion and morning sickness? The Pope told me I'm a bad mother! The pope!

Then months later he uses her as an EXAMPLE for the global media as a bad irresponsible mother. Like preachers of old would use the local girl who was too familiar with too many men. Except you know it's the POPE and they're going to write about you and your irresponsibility in the New York Times.

I mean imagine when the baby comes. Hey Janie you're the one the POPE said was a mistake!

I think an important part of effective pope-ing is refraining from humiliating people.

And once again I'm in the position of appreciating what he's saying (mom of 0 living children here) but being completely appalled...

 

As much I as I agree with this post I think you may be overthinking it. 

 

First off we do not know if he encountered this woman as the Pope, since he has only been pope for nearly 2 years this easily could be an example from years ago. At a time where in Argentina, C-sections could be dangerous.

 

Second The Pope is smart enough to not be that rude to the woman's face (I think we can see this by him not calling her out particularly). In addition he would have called her child a mistake, because life is precious and wonderful, that does not stop the woman from being "irresponsible" for acting in a manner that could risk lives.

 

Lastly, not to hijack the thread, but just comment on reaction on "being a MAN" commenting on a woman's well being is ,IMHO, an Ad hominem. The Popes being a man has nothing to do with him wanting the woman to be healthy and not harm herself with having too many C-sections that at the time could have been more risky than it is now. but that is just me... 

[Maggyie]

As much I as I agree with this post I think you may be overthinking it.

First off we do not know if he encountered this woman as the Pope, since he has only been pope for nearly 2 years this easily could be an example from years ago. At a time where in Argentina, C-sections could be dangerous.

Second The Pope is smart enough to not be that rude to the woman's face (I think we can see this by him not calling her out particularly). In addition he would have called her child a mistake, because life is precious and wonderful, that does not stop the woman from being "irresponsible" for acting in a manner that could risk lives.

Lastly, not to hijack the thread, but just comment on reaction on "being a MAN" commenting on a woman's well being is ,IMHO, an Ad hominem. The Popes being a man has nothing to do with him wanting the woman to be healthy and not harm herself with having too many C-sections that at the time could have been more risky than it is now. but that is just me...

In the transcript I read he said it was a few months ago but translations translations.

I happen to agree that anything more than 3 sections is crazy. That's not my point though.

Notice how papa focused on the mother in the case. No mention of the father. That's because we tend to think of pregnancy as being a problem (or blessing) caused by the mother. Undesirable pregnancies are often considered the fault of promiscuous women (that's what the rabbit image recalls, not procreation but uncontrollable sexuality).

When he says her pregnancy is irresponsible, he means she had SEX irresponsibly.

That's why it's especially problematic for a man to be the one wagging his finger and calling a woman a rabbit, especially a celibate man in a religion where abortion and contraception are no-nos.

So she's pregnant when she shouldn't be. What does he want her to do about it?

[little2add]

What the pope said about conception is a misconception

[ardillacid]

:coffee:

[Oremoose]

In the transcript I read he said it was a few months ago but translations translations.

I happen to agree that anything more than 3 sections is crazy. That's not my point though.

Notice how papa focused on the mother in the case. No mention of the father. That's because we tend to think of pregnancy as being a problem (or blessing) caused by the mother. Undesirable pregnancies are often considered the fault of promiscuous women (that's what the rabbit image recalls, not procreation but uncontrollable sexuality).

When he says her pregnancy is irresponsible, he means she had SEX irresponsibly.

That's why it's especially problematic for a man to be the one wagging his finger and calling a woman a rabbit, especially a celibate man in a religion where abortion and contraception are no-nos.

So she's pregnant when she shouldn't be. What does he want her to do about it?

 

I see and understand your point. To answer the question He wants her to carry her baby to term and that she and the baby remain healthy. And then most likely discern about maybe having it be her last. In order to remain healthy for her family.

 

I am getting this vibe that you are painting the Pope as a misogynist. I am sorry if I am wrong. However The pope was not calling Woman rabbits he was calling Catholics rabbits, in order make the point that we all need more self control in the sexual spectrum of life.

As the 3rd of 11. I would be the first to tell anyone that Large family life is a vocation and not for everyone. I can also say that in the realm of large families there are some who believe that you need to have 5+ kids to be holy (I don't know why,maybe they think it is like buying graces in bulk?). So I agree with the message that the pope was making. The world would be at peace if we all had great self control.

 

As to why the Pope singled out the mother in his later example? I don't know. Like i said I feel you are calling the Pope a sexist. He has to be too bright to fall down that hole. I think he singled her out because she was the one at risk in the example. I would not say that the pope was calling her sex irresponsible. You be "responsible" could take all the precautions necessary (aside from outright abstinence) and still conceive. It would be a long shot but still possible. 

 

Lastly all other reasons aside your, " a man to be the one wagging his finger and calling a woman a rabbit, especially a celibate man in a religion where abortion and contraception are no-nos." Comment I find offencive. It is overused and stale logic (an exemplary Ad Hominem). To boil The Pope down all he trying to do is help to bring all to Christ by being a Priest. It just so happens to do that he has to be male and celibate. And that for you to be as close as you can to Jesus you must abhor Abortion and artificial contraceptives. So for you to Ball him in with those who try to shame/blame women I find disrespectful and cruel. I know the pope is a mere mortal like you and me but he knows his Job and he knows that shaming is not in the description. So to pull out the old "He is just and old, celibate 'women's healthcare' hater." schpeel. Please don't it's bad form.

[Maggyie]

Errr, it's entirely possible to NOT be a misogynist and yet use misogynist language, have misogynist ideas etc since the cultural air we breathe despises women and children (and nowadays men too).  If you don't understand why the Pope lecturing a woman on her sexual relations with her husband and using the 'rabbit' slur is problematic, I dunno what to say.

 

For those keeping score at home:

 

1. Don't have any children - not open to life, selfish, sinful

2. Have too many children - too open to life? irresponsible, sinful

3. Using IVF to conceive - this somehow falls into both categories. Sinful.

4. Having a baby without being married - sinful but we eventually figured out it's counter-productive to shame these women.

5. Using artificial birth control to avoid conception - need I say more. Sinful

6. Having an abortion - Duh. But see #4

7. Adopting - not sinful, but let's talk more about how women are defined in our theology by their sex's ability to physically conceive and give birth.

[CrossCuT]

Errr, it's entirely possible to NOT be a misogynist and yet use misogynist language, have misogynist ideas etc since the cultural air we breathe despises women and children (and nowadays men too).  If you don't understand why the Pope lecturing a woman on her sexual relations with her husband and using the 'rabbit' slur is problematic, I dunno what to say.

 

For those keeping score at home:

 

1. Don't have any children - not open to life, selfish, sinful

2. Have too many children - too open to life? irresponsible, sinful

3. Using IVF to conceive - this somehow falls into both categories. Sinful.

4. Having a baby without being married - sinful but we eventually figured out it's counter-productive to shame these women.

5. Using artificial birth control to avoid conception - need I say more. Sinful

6. Having an abortion - Duh. But see #4

7. Adopting - not sinful, but let's talk more about how women are defined in our theology by their sex's ability to physically conceive and give birth.

 

I wish i could prop this 10x over. But thats probably sinful too...

 

As a woman we have a few choices on how to deal with out sexuality/baby-making-parts. And if you dont follow all the rules, then you get shunned. 

 

I dont buy it. its a load of pocky. 

 

Besides if you CANT use the 1 avenue the church allows, (and/or its super difficult) you are subject to a sexless marriage which ultimately makes the woman feel like a broken piece of garbage. The church has no answers for these women. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by CrossCuT

[Oremoose]

Errr, it's entirely possible to NOT be a misogynist and yet use misogynist language, have misogynist ideas etc since the cultural air we breathe despises women and children (and nowadays men too).  If you don't understand why the Pope lecturing a woman on her sexual relations with her husband and using the 'rabbit' slur is problematic, I dunno what to say.

 

For those keeping score at home:

 

1. Don't have any children - not open to life, selfish, sinful

2. Have too many children - too open to life? irresponsible, sinful

3. Using IVF to conceive - this somehow falls into both categories. Sinful.

4. Having a baby without being married - sinful but we eventually figured out it's counter-productive to shame these women.

5. Using artificial birth control to avoid conception - need I say more. Sinful

6. Having an abortion - Duh. But see #4

7. Adopting - not sinful, but let's talk more about how women are defined in our theology by their sex's ability to physically conceive and give birth.

 

I would think that having Miogynist ideas would make you one. I would agree that the Pope's choice in words was poor but the point He was trying to make is an alright. Those that do not parent well should not continue to have kids, for the sake of their kids fromation and up brining.

 

In resopce to your score board.

 

1.Not having kids is not sinful. If a couple discern togather that they are not in a position the have kids. Go them! (They just need to use natural Birth Controls) Also infertility (the main reasons 2 of my uncles have no kids) does not stop a marraige form being valid.

2. Is there such a thing as having too meny kids? I don't think so, aslong as the the partent do their duties well enough to raise each child with as much love and attention as they each needs. ( If this is referring to the Popes comment. I think you are missing the point He was not saying we are haveing to meny kids. He was saying that we don't need to have lage families to be good Catholics. As I have said, before I have met people that think they need 5+ kids to be a saintly family regardless of the quality of the kids formation and well being. That is what I feel he is adressing, as i said above very crudely but not maliciously).

3. I personally don't know too much about the Curches stance on that but I am sure it is reasonable.

4. Shame is never good or permissable. I think that comes from Socitiy as a whole, not just the Church.

5. Props. No other way to say it.

6. I think the shame here comes more from a postion of "Why? when there are so meany out there ready to help you?" rather than "Contol yourself" as with #4.

7. Sure lets talk, I love learning. I have recently (in my limited freetime) been looking into Gender Vs. Sex, Gender equality and such with little luck. I am happy to see what others have found and their Critques on it.

 

 

Edit: Spelling. I am terrible at it and my works web browser does nto have spell check. :(

Edited January 23, 2015 by Oremoose