Catholics Don't Need To Breed Like Rabbits

[Ancilla Domini]

Pope Francis says that Catholics don't need to "breed like rabbits," and that 3 children per family is about right.

 

He chastised a woman who was pregnant with her eighth child after 7 C-Sections, telling her that she was "tempting God." He said that what she did was "an irresponsibility."

 

Discuss.

[Nihil Obstat]

Before we do this, I do need exact quotes. I read several news stories on this, none of which cited an original source. I need to see exactly what was said before I can comment.

[Ancilla Domini]

“I believe that three children per family, from what the experts say, is the key number for sustaining the population. The key word here is responsible parenthood and each person works out how to exercise this with the help of their pastor… Sorry, some people think that in order to be good Catholics we have to breed like rabbits, right? Responsible parenthood: this is why there are marriage support groups in the Church with people who are experts on such issues; and there are pastors and I know that there are many acceptable solutions that have helped with this. And another thing: for poor people children are a treasure, prudence is needed here too, it is true. Responsible parenthood is important but also recognising the generosity of that father or mother who see their child as a treasure.”

 

As to the second one, I put the quotes in there. He said that he chided her for "tempting God," said that she had put her health at risk, and said that "that was an irresponsibility."

[little2add]

poppycock

[CrossCuT]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30890989

 

 

Speaking to journalists while heading back to Rome from the Philippines on Monday, Pope Francis was asked what he would say to families who had more children than they could afford because the Church forbids artificial contraception.

He replied with an unexpected turn of phrase: "Some people think that - excuse my expression here - that in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits."

"No. Parenthood is about being responsible. This is clear."

The Pope said he knew many ways allowed by the Catholic Church that could ensure families only had as many children as they wished.

He cited the case of one woman he had met who had had seven children by Caesarean section and was expecting her eighth - a pregnancy he said was irresponsible.

 

"She said, 'I trust in God.' But God gave us the means to be responsible," the Pope said.

 

[Nihil Obstat]

“I believe that three children per family, from what the experts say, is the key number for sustaining the population. The key word here is responsible parenthood and each person works out how to exercise this with the help of their pastor… Sorry, some people think that in order to be good Catholics we have to breed like rabbits, right? Responsible parenthood: this is why there are marriage support groups in the Church with people who are experts on such issues; and there are pastors and I know that there are many acceptable solutions that have helped with this. And another thing: for poor people children are a treasure, prudence is needed here too, it is true. Responsible parenthood is important but also recognising the generosity of that father or mother who see their child as a treasure.”
 
As to the second one, I put the quotes in there. He said that he chided her for "tempting God," said that she had put her health at risk, and said that "that was an irresponsibility."

“I believe that three children per family, from what the experts say, is the key number for sustaining the population."

This is more or less true from a demographic point of view. The thing is that the replacement fertility rate has precisely nothing to do with the Catholic family and our theology of the body. Responsible parenthood, I am willing to argue, is absolutely unrelated to worldwide demographic factors. Therefore I am not sure why the Holy Father went in this angle. Is he trying to draw a connection here, or are they just two unrelated statements?

 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Perhaps it's my ignorance, but I'm finding the Pope's comments surprising, and I am going to try to find out more about the context in which they were made.

 

For some couples, NFP works very well, for others (without going into detail as to why-that's in the parenting thread), NFP doesn't work as well for physiological reasons.

 

Also, NFP, and (as I understand it) any method of spacing children supported by the Catholic Church, require the couple to abstain from sexual intercourse at least some of the time. Does this mean that a couple for whom NFP doesn't work very well for physiological reasons need to abstain from sexual intercourse altogether to have a "responsible number" of children (whatever that number might be)? For many couples this might not only be very difficult, but unhealthy for their marriage. Even if the primary purpose of sexual intercourse is procreation, it also has the secondary benefit of helping to strengthen the bond between husband and wife.

 

As to the woman who had eight children by C-Section, I wish I knew more about the circumstances why the Pope would chide her for "tempting God," putting her health at risk, and being "irresponsible." The Pope seems very intelligent, so I want to assume that he knew far more about this specific woman's circumstances before he chided her. In and of itself, I wouldn't think that having eight C-Sections was irresponsible. C-Sections are far less invasive and dangerous today than they might have been even 10-20 years ago. Did this woman go against her doctor's advice in having more children?

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

Meh.  I'm going to wait a little longer while this story unfolds.  

[Ancilla Domini]

Perhaps it's my ignorance, but I'm finding the Pope's comments surprising, and I am going to try to find out more about the context in which they were made.

 

For some couples, NFP works very well, for others (without going into detail as to why-that's in the parenting thread), NFP doesn't work as well for physiological reasons.

 

Also, NFP, and (as I understand it) any method of spacing children supported by the Catholic Church, require the couple to abstain from sexual intercourse at least some of the time. Does this mean that a couple for whom NFP doesn't work very well for physiological reasons need to abstain from sexual intercourse altogether to have a "responsible number" of children (whatever that number might be)? For many couples this might not only be very difficult, but unhealthy for their marriage. Even if the primary purpose of sexual intercourse is procreation, it also has the secondary benefit of helping to strengthen the bond between husband and wife.

 

As to the woman who had eight children by C-Section, I wish I knew more about the circumstances why the Pope would chide her for "tempting God," putting her health at risk, and being "irresponsible." The Pope seems very intelligent, so I want to assume that he knew far more about this specific woman's circumstances before he chided her. In and of itself, I wouldn't think that having eight C-Sections was irresponsible. C-Sections are far less invasive and dangerous today than they might have been even 10-20 years ago. Did this woman go against her doctor's advice in having more children?

 

What I don't get is this:

Although I understand that in order to be a good Catholic, it is not necessary for you to have 10 children, I also don't see anything wrong with having 10 children. To have a large family is a beautiful thing. I don't think that it's "irresponsible parenting." Louis and Zélie Martin had 9 children, 5 of whom lived to adulthood and became nuns. If they had been told that having that number of children is "irresponsible," Therese of Lisieux might not have been born.
 

What exactly is irresponsible about having a large number of children?

[KnightofChrist]

If he actually said it I disagree. I really don't think it was wise to use a term that has been used so often as a jab against big Catholic families. I remember hearing this thrown at my parents because they had four children. Apparently one too many.

[Amppax]

Poor wording, but his overall point isn't bad. What you're all forgetting is that a few months ago he gave a homily urging married couples to be "generous" with their fertility (I'll see if I can find it, but I distinctly remember it). I think context is really important here. I think it's also important to realize that he is coming from the Philippines, which are incredibly densely populated, and to read the comment in light of that. Also, read Humanae Vitae. It's almost as much about responsible parenthood as it is about contraception. 

Edited January 20, 2015 by Amppax

[Ancilla Domini]

What you're all forgetting is that a few months ago he gave a homily urging married couples to be "generous" with their fertility.

 

Seems like he's contradicting himself then. How can he tell married couples to be generous with their fertility while at the same time chastising someone for having 8 children through C-sections, saying that 3 children is a nice number, and saying we don't need to "breed like rabbits"?

[Amppax]

Seems like he's contradicting himself then. How can he tell married couples to be generous with their fertility while at the same time chastising someone for having 8 children through C-sections, saying that 3 children is a nice number, and saying we don't need to "breed like rabbits"?

Nope. Context. One audience is rich Europeans, who are dying off faster the than they are having children, and who are diametrically opposed to the idea of big families the other is people in a third world nation. Really the statements are quite sensible.

Also, in regards to the c section, his point is that Catholic teaching doesn't require this woman to constantly put her health at risk.I think he was a little harsh, but I agree with his point.

[Nihil Obstat]

Part of the problem here is going to be how Catholics, and the rest of the world, are going to understand what has been said. As the speech circulates it will lose some of its nuance for the people who do not necessarily go looking for primary sources. What they will see is:
Pope says three children "ideal". Pope says Catholics do not have to "breed like rabbits". The obvious inference here, which as we discussed is not necessarily accurate, will be that having more than around three children is approaching breeding like rabbits. The other example is presented like a sort of fringe extremism. Look at this crazy Catholic who thinks she has to have 8 kids to go to heaven. She is irresponsible.
As the message loses its richness and enters into Francis' informal magisterium I believe it will ultimately contribute to the pressure against large families.

Whatever Pope Francis was really meaning to say, I do not think the words as quoted were very prudent

[Ancilla Domini]

Nope. Context. One audience is rich Europeans, who are dying off faster the than they are having children, and who are diametrically opposed to the idea of big families the other is people in a third world nation. Really the statements are quite sensible.

 

If he meant to direct them at particular peoples, then he ought to have done so, and not made a broad statement. He can't say one statement to one group and a completely different statement to another group without clarifying, so the rest of us don't get confused.