Guest Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Really? Edited January 16, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST BERNARD Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Really? Do you have an opinion on this? I didn't see your thread before I posted a poll in Debate Table. I would be interested in what you have to say. It's called 'Do you agree with the Pope?' I am very conflicted about his comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Post from Catholic Answers OrdinaryMelkite Regular Member Join Date: August 31, 2010 Posts: 4,920 Religion: Eastern Catholic Re: Pope on Charlie Hebdo: There are limits to free expression I have not been here for a while because of personal matters, but I might as well jump into this. I am about as Catholic and God-fearing as anybody else here, but count me in as among those who would stand up for the right of atheist Charlie Hebdo to publish cartoons making fun of religion. Jesus and God can take it----more so than anybody else here. We do no need to think of our comfort in regards to this cartoon----we need to think of THEIR comfort-----and they do not need us to defend their self-evident truth. Their truth and dignity shine like a beacon for the whole world to see regardless. They do not need a pretentious, provocative cartoon to make us or them doubt their self-evident truth. A true religion does not whimper and cover itself if it is ridiculed or mocked. It proclaims the truth even more strongly and vociferously. With MORE speech. And if Mohammed (of all people) should be able to take it----then Jesus our savior and our God can take it. Personally, I think Mohammed's little barbaric religion is WAY more "undignified" than Christianity and any other religion has ever been----and deserves as much ridicule as it deserves (sorry, defenders of Islam)-------but I STILL defend the right of Charlie Hebdo to make fun of EVERYBODY (including Christianity)---like they have ALWAYS done. And Bill Donahue (is that how his name is spelled?) needs to retire and give it a rest--------when even conservatives are giving him a hard time for his comments-----he has gone too far. Sean Hannity (whom I otherwise INTENSELY dislike) had it right on his show about a week ago when he had that detestable pro-jihad Iman on from London-----he told the guy in essence "Deal with it-----I have to deal with it when they show the Virgin Mary covered in excrement---YOU should be able to deal with it as well." The greatest moment of free speech is when we have to defend speech we otherwise hate-----NOT when it is speech we generally AGREE WITH. So sorry, Your Holiness---I have to respecfully disagree with you. As Salman Rushdie said in an editorial last week, even religion is not immune from disrespect (he should know the consequences, of all people) and we (religious or secular) people should stand up to for that right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST BERNARD Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Thank you for cross-posting this. I have similar feelings to this poster and I think that's why I am having problems accepting what the Pope said. People get disrespected all the time for a variety of reasons, religion is only one of them. And it would be great if we all showed respect towards each other, but it doesn't always happen. I just don't think that a retaliatory response is what Jesus would have wanted. But then that's my interpretation of His words and I can't speak for every Christian. Perhaps Pope Francis was only using word for dramatic effect - I don't know, but he words are disturbing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) I disagree with the Pope on this one. I think there needs to be a difference between 'you can't do something' and 'you shouldn't do something'. I don't think we as Catholics should deliberately go out of our way to hurt people or to denigrate them, and Charlie Hebdo has done those things - they don't just satirize things, they are malicious about people. The cartoon they published in response to the kidnapping of those girls by Boko Haram was just awful, and it's the type of thing they publish all the time. I also don't think making fun of someone else's faith is a productive thing to do or a charitable thing to do: if I disagree with someone's religious views, I can present the Gospel in a kindly way. But this does not mean that I think Charlie Hebdo can't do what they do, no matter how tasteless or vicious they are about it. I am also uncomfortable with what the Holy Father said about his friend and aide - that if the aide cursed his mother, the aide could expect a punch. I realize that the Pope was making a joke, but even so, it doesn't exactly sit with Jesus' commandment to turn the other cheek. There's also a difference between punching someone and murdering them, even though neither one is a great thing to do in response to insult - a punch is unlikely to leave someone dead, and is also more likely to be done in the heat of the moment, without premeditation. I really doubt that the Holy Father would argue that there are circumstances in which he'd feel happy plotting to shoot his friends. Edited January 16, 2015 by beatitude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Thank you for cross-posting this. I have similar feelings to this poster and I think that's why I am having problems accepting what the Pope said. People get disrespected all the time for a variety of reasons, religion is only one of them. And it would be great if we all showed respect towards each other, but it doesn't always happen. I just don't think that a retaliatory response is what Jesus would have wanted. But then that's my interpretation of His words and I can't speak for every Christian. Perhaps Pope Francis was only using word for dramatic effect - I don't know, but he words are disturbing to me. I don't think that lack of respect for others, which can be prevalent in our society and accepted in cultural consciousness as ok - can make it right and ok in our Catholic spirituality. It becomes, therefore, a question of whether I am going to swim with the tide in secular life or with the tide in Catholic spirituality which means I am swimming against the tide of secularity and living and witnessing counter culturally in this instance. What disturbed me was Pope Francis saying that if his friend insulted his mother, he would punch him!!! That to me is revenge and violent revenge. Of course, it might have been punishment, but then we dispensed with corporal punishment in Catholic communities of all kinds and very often in secular cultural communities as well. While it was disturbing to hear The Holy Father say he would punch anyone for any reason, I was able to smile. Pope Francis sounds human and faulted just like the rest of us - me for sure anyway. However, with The Holy Father making such a statement, the danger becomes that violent response to personal insults slips into Catholic cultural consciousness. I had to remind myself that the comments by Pope Francis were not infallible...........obviously. I found the "Charlie Hebdo" staff response to the bells ringing in Notre Dame Catholic Cathedral in sympathy for the massacred and their cause rather shallow in their understanding. I don't think that the bells were ringing for the newspaper, rather for the right of freedom of speech and honouring the massacred and something higher than Charlie Hebdo as a publication. I agree with Pope Francis that freedom of speech does not mean anarchy in freedom of speech. But there too I can sight Catholic spirituality (ideally Catholic cultural consciousness) swimming against the tide of secular cultural consciousness.......it is counter secular cultural consciousness. The potential danger I can see coming out of the Charlie Hebdo matter is that absolute disrespect for others becomes the fashion............... in vogue in secular cultural consciousness and all too often secular opinions can slip into our Catholic cultural consciousness. Edited January 16, 2015 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) . Edited January 16, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Is almost like people never learn to seek the entire quote and put it in context of Catholic understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Pope Francis is the man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I was under the impression that the pope wasn't advocating formal censorship, but was reminding people that they should show respect for religion and what people hold sacred. I also perceived the punch reference to be a joke to demonstrate a point about provocation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I argued in another thread that the whole "deal with it" attitude toward free speech is making speech irrelevant. Implicitly, what it says is any kind of speech is welcome, as long as you don't really do anything to upset the social order or question its basis. I think it may even help violent extremism, because when speech is irrelevant in society, it's tempting to resort to other means that, however brutal, at least give you a sense of doing something real. People used to DUEL each other, legally, in the United States. Aaron Burr killed Alexander Hamilton in a duel. Before the Civil War, Massachusetts Senator Charles Sumner was brutally caned by a South Carolina Representative after an anti-slavery speech. And of course, St. Nicholas famously punched Arius at the Council of Nicaea. I'm not arguing for violence or defending the Charlie Hebdo attacks, just saying to beware of the pious invocation of free speech, because it can be a path to docility and submission, not freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I think people are very quick to criticise Pope Francis. He said you shouldnt disrespect religions. He didn't say you should make it illegal to disrespect religions. It's like when a father teaches his son to hold the door open for a lady, and then gets barraged with criticisms of being sexist and accused of forcing his son to be a servant. It's actually kinda ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kia ora Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I am also uncomfortable with what the Holy Father said about his friend and aide - that if the aide cursed his mother, the aide could expect a punch. I realize that the Pope was making a joke, but even so, it doesn't exactly sit with Jesus' commandment to turn the other cheek. There's also a difference between punching someone and murdering them, even though neither one is a great thing to do in response to insult - a punch is unlikely to leave someone dead, and is also more likely to be done in the heat of the moment, without premeditation. I really doubt that the Holy Father would argue that there are circumstances in which he'd feel happy plotting to shoot his friends. Related question, what is your opinion on Just War? Are you a pacifist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) I love Papa Frank! He is pretty rad! I still have the sticker I received for free with a picture of him and the words "This Pope gives me Hope" on my refrigerator at home. Edited January 16, 2015 by CrossCuT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygr5AHufBN4#t=227[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now