Nihil Obstat Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Forming confraternities and other groups with the intention of strengthening the faith has been a thing in Catholicism for centuries. No reason to get all uptight about it now. Or do people just have a problem with opposition to Kasper's grand vision of auto-demolition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I see no reason why a group of clergy coming together and unanimously declaring unwavering loyalty to the Church and its teachings should be considered negative or something worth bemoaning. Considering that, I don't see why we shouldn't be on these Priests' side, as they are professing unwavering loyalty and fidelity to the Church. In the days of the Arian Heresy, there were two factions: The large majority of Bishops who were Arians, and the minute number who were loyal to the Pope and the Church. I would have openly sided with them back then, and I openly side with these clergymen today. I don't really see why factions and siding with one or the other is bad in and of itself, as it really is nothing new. In the book of Acts there was a major dispute about the Old Law and whether it bound us to it still, and there were two factions representing each side and slugging it out. The existence of theological factions amongst the clergy is so old it should almost be considered a capital 'T' Tradition, really. Because things don't happen in a vacuum, and they only reason why they're doing this is to preemptively paint themselves as the correct side, while also painting anyone who disagrees with them (on issues that they CAN disagree on) as heretics. Look, you're already comparing the situation to the Arian heresy. I'm so over it. It's political crap masquerading as "look how holy we are." There's nothing wrong with "siding" with Church teaching (look, we're talking about it in terms of Us and Them!), but this is more about factional crap than promoting Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I think that's a good point. What issues are they supporting that can be disagreed on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST BERNARD Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 It would probably be more newsworthy if a group of clerics got together and declared their 'unwavering opposition' to the traditional doctrines of the Church. I don't really see the point of this at all. Isn't it assumed that clergy are in union with the Church? If not, then it's up to their Bishops and Rome to do something about it. This just seems like a case of 'we're holier than other priests'. Sorry if that's offensive, but honestly, I just don't see why this makes the news or should be lauded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Because things don't happen in a vacuum, and they only reason why they're doing this is to preemptively paint themselves as the correct side, while also painting anyone who disagrees with them (on issues that they CAN disagree on) as heretics. Look, you're already comparing the situation to the Arian heresy. I'm so over it. It's political croutons masquerading as "look how holy we are." There's nothing wrong with "siding" with Church teaching (look, we're talking about it in terms of Us and Them!), but this is more about factional croutons than promoting Church teaching. I'm afraid you're making the mistake of attacking the analogy because you think I believe today's issues are of the same gravity. I don't, although it must be said that allowing people living in unrepentant states of mortal sin to receive the Eucharist is what theologians and Saints would call "a really big freaking deal". But note that all these Priests did was profess loyalty to Church teaching on things such as gay marriage. I'm sorry, but if a Catholic opposes them, they are on the wrong side. It IS about promoting Church teaching, actually. It's about uniting together as one and opposing those in the Church who would see the Church go into open heresy and contradict doctrine, which, again, is a heck of a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 It would probably be more newsworthy if a group of clerics got together and declared their 'unwavering opposition' to the traditional doctrines of the Church. I don't really see the point of this at all. Isn't it assumed that clergy are in union with the Church? If not, then it's up to their Bishops and Rome to do something about it. This just seems like a case of 'we're holier than other priests'. Sorry if that's offensive, but honestly, I just don't see why this makes the news or should be lauded. You're not familiar with the current state of the clergy, are you? Many, many people of the clergy openly oppose Church teaching. The Pope had to excommunicate a Priest in Australia not too long ago for it, in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You're not familiar with the current state of the clergy, are you? Many, many people of the clergy openly oppose Church teaching. The Pope had to excommunicate a Priest in Australia not too long ago for it, in fact. Oh come on. You're making it sound like 5/10 priests are heretics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Oh come on. You're making it sound like 5/10 priests are heretics. I'm referring more to the Bishops, but the state of Priests is not exactly good right now. A large majority of Bishops during the Arian crisis opposed Church teaching, and I'm not sure why it's such a novel idea that that is happening again or even can happen again. Too often we have a mentality of "Oh, that happened back then, but times are different now and that could never happen in this day and age." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST BERNARD Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You're not familiar with the current state of the clergy, are you? Many, many people of the clergy openly oppose Church teaching. The Pope had to excommunicate a Priest in Australia not too long ago for it, in fact. You misread my post completely but that's just part of being on the Internet of course. Actually, I am quite familiar with the state of the clergy today, and reading your profile it seems that you are still quite young, so that might explain some of the things you have posted. Not to say that the young don't have much to offer - they are the future after all, but your brain won't even be fully formed until you are around 25-26, so I will take that into consideration in my replies. Yes, the Pope did have to excommunicate a priest in Australia, and that is his prerogative for those who step too far outside the lines. That is what I was saying, it is up to the Bishops and the Pope to handle these things. But they obviously don't want to just use a stick to go beating all the clergy around the head - they want to help them come to an understanding of the faith. When that doesn't work, then there is the option of excommunication of course, but this has also been used in the past just to try to control some people who disagree on things (that aren't dogma), as in the case of St Mary of the Cross Mackillop, so it shouldn't be merely a tool of revenge, but a means of bringing one to an understanding. What I dislike about groups like this priest group, is that the Church already has enough divisions. Let the clergy work towards more unity in the style of Pope Francis, rather than setting up cliques of 'we're good, you're not' type of thing. Anyway, that's just one more opinion on the Internet. And like all opinions, it is much less than St Aquina's 'straw'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Actually, I am quite familiar with the state of the clergy today, and reading your profile it seems that you are still quite young, so that might explain some of the things you have posted. *sighs internally* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST BERNARD Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 *sighs internally* Have I said something wrong? If so, please remember that I am new to this community. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 You misread my post completely but that's just part of being on the Internet of course. Actually, I am quite familiar with the state of the clergy today, and reading your profile it seems that you are still quite young, so that might explain some of the things you have posted. Not to say that the young don't have much to offer - they are the future after all, but your brain won't even be fully formed until you are around 25-26, so I will take that into consideration in my replies. Yes, the Pope did have to excommunicate a priest in Australia, and that is his prerogative for those who step too far outside the lines. That is what I was saying, it is up to the Bishops and the Pope to handle these things. But they obviously don't want to just use a stick to go beating all the clergy around the head - they want to help them come to an understanding of the faith. When that doesn't work, then there is the option of excommunication of course, but this has also been used in the past just to try to control some people who disagree on things (that aren't dogma), as in the case of St Mary of the Cross Mackillop, so it shouldn't be merely a tool of revenge, but a means of bringing one to an understanding. What I dislike about groups like this priest group, is that the Church already has enough divisions. Let the clergy work towards more unity in the style of Pope Francis, rather than setting up cliques of 'we're good, you're not' type of thing. Anyway, that's just one more opinion on the Internet. And like all opinions, it is much less than St Aquina's 'straw'. Indeed, my brain is not yet fully developed. However, my opinions have been formed and fostered by people at least twice my age, including mostly that of Pope Benedict XVI. Heck, even Pope Paul VI said the smoke of Satan has entered into the sanctuary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST BERNARD Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Indeed, my brain is not yet fully developed. However, my opinions have been formed and fostered by people at least twice my age, including mostly that of Pope Benedict XVI. Heck, even Pope Paul VI said the smoke of Satan has entered into the sanctuary. Which, once again, does not address any of the points I made. And you will find over time that opinions are formed and reformed as one matures. The devil certainly did enter the sanctuary in the case of pedophile priests but it would be counter-productive for a group of priests to get together to form an organization just to announce that 'we are not pedophiles!' When you are able to read what I said and respond to that, then perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion about it. Until then we are just two anonymous Internet posters who each state their opinion. Fun but not life-changing. :) Edited January 13, 2015 by ST BERNARD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Which, once again, does not address any of the points I made. And you will find over time that opinions are formed and reformed as one matures. The devil certainly did enter the sanctuary in the case of pedophile priests but it would be counter-productive for a group of priests to get together to form an organization just to announce that 'we are not pedophiles!' When you are able to read what I said and respond to that, then perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion about it. Until then we are just two anonymous Internet posters who each state their opinion. Fun but not life-changing. :) He wasn't talking about pedophiles. There is no proof that he knew there were pedophiles, and if that were to come out his integrity would be ruined because he did nothing about it. He was referring specifically to clergy who were unfaithful to Church teaching and simply taught what they wanted. The Mahoneys in the Church who were committing liturgical abuses and openly dissenting from Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Have I said something wrong? If so, please remember that I am new to this community. :) Sort of. I know you're new so you're not familiar with the "phatmass tone" yet. I'm pretty sure you were being serious and didn't think it sounded rude or belittling. Well, it did. There are posts by people decades older than FP that are consistently crazy and all over the place that I don't even bother to read, yet no one says "well they're old (or mentally disabled or whatever), better keep that in mind." No, that's rude. One should address the issues, and if the person is just being off the wall for whatever reason- age, mental issues, emotional issues, rough life, politely state what you need to state. No need to bring attention to their age or whatever factor you think is contributing to their views. Completely dismissing someone else's point of view because of their age is also a logical fallacy. I'm pretty sure this sounds a little short. Please don't take it the wrong way, I'm just trying to explain an issue. Welcome to phatmass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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